Len Wein - The Stan Lee of the bronze age?

[shaxper]

Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but I'm consistantly amazed that Wein doesn't get more credit for his place in comic book history. The guy created Wolverine, was single-handedly responsible for the resurrection of the X-Men franchise, co-created Storm Nightcrawler, and Colossus with Dave Cochrum, made the decision to kill off Thunderbird, and even created Swamp Thing which, in many ways, brought the horror genre back to the mainstream.

Wein wrote runs for nearly every famous title at both Marvel and DC, and most of those runs earned him some acclaim.

It's recently amazed me to discover just how much impact he had as editor upon the New Teen Titans, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and even Watchmen.

At any rate, I was just wondering if anyone else felt that Len Wein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Len_Wein) was underrated for his contributions, or if anyone else had praise or criticism to add to my abbreviated list.

[Greg Hatcher]

Len Wein wrote what may be one of my favorite JLA runs ever, back in the 70's. I always liked his Bat stuff too, especially the "Bat-Murderer!" saga that ran in Detective that really needs to be collected, and his tenure as Bat-editor in the 80's also produced some of my favorite comics. He did some nice work at Marvel too, but I always thought it was DC where he really shone.

[shaxper]

Wow. I just saw the announcement about Len Wein stopping by to chat on Monday. I wonder if I subconsciously saw that and then started this thread...

[Cei-U!]

Len is not only one of my favorite writers but also one of my favorite editors. His tenure at DC in the mid-80s is outstanding and includes such gems as the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans, the Evanier/Spiegle Blackhawk and the early issues of All-Star Squadron.

Cei-U!
I summon the impressive resume.

[Gingold]

Wein is a fantastic writer. I think he's criminally underappreciated. It's nice to see Grant Morrison acknowledge him as the inspiration behind his Seven Soldiers event in some recent interviews. Is his current low profile in comics by choice or is he just not getting work?

[Paradox]

Len Wein likes MOOSES!!

Meese? :p

[shaxper]

I don't know for sure, but I'd always assumed he was partially retired. He's in his sixties now and has been writing comics since his twenties, I believe.

[Cei-U!]

The last I heard Len was editing for the Disney comics line. That was a long while ago though.

Cei-U!
I summon yesterday's news!

[Hombre]

I have a tremendous respect for Len's work. These guys who took over the reins of Marvel's classic mainstays in the early 70s, Wein, Englehart, McGregor, Gerber, Mantlo, Wolfman et al, set a standard of excellence, maturity and daring that has constantly inspired Marvel's distinctive approach to super hero fiction from Frank Miller to Ed Brubaker, and while often imitated, it has only rarely been transcended or surpassed.

[sheets]

Wein is co-writing the upcoming Conan: Book of Thoth miniseries.

[Agentum]

"made the decision to kill off Thunderbird,"
Do you mean that indian x-men that dies in some of the early new x-men books in the 70s?
I have read that it was already desided before the series to let that character die, just to show that this was a series that everyone could die in:)
Nice desision but the character was not very important.
Poor Thundebird only cannonfodder.

[shaxper]

These guys who took over the reins of Marvel's classic mainstays in the early 70s, Wein, Englehart, McGregor, Gerber, Mantlo, Wolfman et al, set a standard of excellence, maturity and daring that has constantly inspired Marvel's distinctive approach to super hero fiction from Frank Miller to Ed Brubaker, and while often imitated, it has only rarely been transcended or surpassed.


I would agree with all of those except Mantlo. I never could stand his writing or plotting. I heard he did some great stuff in Rom: Spaceknight, but I've read his stuff in several places (Spectacular Spider-Man, Champions, a few spots in Uncanny X-Men, to name a few), and each story seemed horribly overdone and silly to me. But it's hard to criticize the man these days, considering everything that's happened to him as of late.


"made the decision to kill off Thunderbird,"
Do you mean that indian x-men that dies in some of the early new x-men books in the 70s?
I have read that it was already desided before the series to let that character die, just to show that this was a series that everyone could die in:)
Nice desision but the character was not very important.
Poor Thundebird only cannonfodder.

Wein intended from the very start to have a character die right off the bat. The idea was to raise the stakes in storytelling, letting the audience know that these heroes were in real danger each month and could forseeably die in a moment's notice. Keep in mind that this was long before characters did much dying in comics. Green Goblin and Gwen Stacey aside, it was pretty much unheard of. In my opinion, the fact that neither the readers nor X-Men got much of a chance to know Thunderbird before he kicked the big one made the death more unexpected and tragic.

[Roquefort Raider]

So, how must I pronounce "Wein"?

Vine? Wine? Veen? Ween? Wayne? When?



I agree on the fact the good Mr. Wein does not get the appreciation he deserves, btw.

[Mike Kuypers]

So, how must I pronounce "Wein"?

Vine? Wine? Veen? Ween? Wayne? When?

You got it right the fourth time. Ween.

[Reptisaurus!]

I would agree with all of those except Mantlo. I never could stand his writing or plotting. I heard he did some great stuff in Rom: Spaceknight, but I've read his stuff in several places (Spectacular Spider-Man, Champions, a few spots in Uncanny X-Men, to name a few), and each story seemed horribly overdone and silly to me. But it's hard to criticize the man these days, considering everything that's happened to him as of late.



Honestly, I feel the same way about Wein's Marvel work... It was very rarely it rated much above "average" on the MarkAndrew-meter.

Although he did write the first Stegron the Dinosaur Man story, who's probably my favorite Marvel character ever.

Conversely, of course, his Swamp Thing was brilliant in every particular, and there are days when I'd call him the greatest JLA scribe, like, ever.

P.S. Mantlo ain't my favorite writer, ever, but he did do some extremely strong work here and there. His three issue Captain Universe run (With Steve Ditko!) was a thing of beauty and wonder.


Len is not only one of my favorite writers but also one of my favorite editors. His tenure at DC in the mid-80s is outstanding and includes such gems as the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans, the Evanier/Spiegle Blackhawk and the early issues of All-Star Squadron.


And, if I remember right, Watchmen!

[shaxper]

You got it right the fourth time. Ween.

Really?

I believe his full last name is Weinstien, in which case it would be pronounced "wine".

[Stephane Garrelie]

Len Wein was wonderful on Hulk and on the Batman Titles.

Bill Mantlo was a very good writer too. I think thats a matter of taste.

[Hombre]

I think what a lot of those writers had in common, even the ones that didn't much break with conventional storytelling techniques - as Mc Gregor or Gerber did - was a sense of compassion for human frailty and a capacity to convey the tragic aspects and the grieving heart of their characters.

One of my favorite stories of Len's is Hulk #206 "A man-brute beserk!" dealing with the Hulk's helpless rage in the wake of Jarella's death. Another is Thor #268, "Death, thy name is brother!" in which the deluded villain Damocles falls and Thor comforts his bereaved brother noting how his death had been marked by the birth of a star.

[Mike Kuypers]

Really?

I believe his full last name is Weinstien, in which case it would be pronounced "wine".

The Ween pronunciation was given in lettercols more than once.

[InfoBroker]

... and many an interview.

-jb the ib-

[shaxper]

perhaps he changed the pronunciation for the same reason he shortened the name. I'm sure a Jewish name wasn't exactly an asset in the industry back then.

As for great Wien stories, I still love the conclusion to Incredible Hulk #181, where the hulk instinctively comforts the crying, guilt-ridden would-be villainess at the end. I still feel that the introduction of Wolverine was an annoying interruption to an otherwise superb hulk story in those issues.

[Roquefort Raider]

perhaps he changed the pronunciation for the same reason he shortened the name. I'm sure a Jewish name wasn't exactly an asset in the industry back then.


Shades of Gene Wilder exclaiming: "MY NAME IS FRANKENSTEEN!" :D

[Simon Garth]

Honestly, I feel the same way about Wein's Marvel work... It was very rarely it rated much above "average" on the MarkAndrew-meter.

....

P.S. Mantlo ain't my favorite writer, ever, but he did do some extremely strong work here and there. His three issue Captain Universe run (With Steve Ditko!) was a thing of beauty and wonder.

I agree about Wein and that Mantlo series - never liked Wein's Marvel work - he just seemed like one of the "hack pack" that churned out mountains of dross for Marvel in the 70s - Wein/Mantlo/Conway/Wolfman/Isabella and others I can't remember; liked Englehart, Gerber and McGregor from that period, but the others produced some truly terrible comics (some good stuff as well, but the majority was awful).

On a related tack - one of the things that has really struck me since starting to peruse the Essentials series, which is the first time I'd seen that 70s work in Black and White since the old UK Marvel weeklies, is just how awful a lot of the artwork was, as well.

[Slam_Bradley]

I'm a pretty big fan of Len's. He and Wrightson's Swamp Thing was classic. While his Spider-man wasn't on par with Lee's or Conway's it was always entertaining and seldom actually "bad."

He was, as Kurt pointed out, a very good editor.

[scratchie]

I agree about Wein and that Mantlo series - never liked Wein's Marvel work - he just seemed like one of the "hack pack" that churned out mountains of dross for Marvel in the 70s - Wein/Mantlo/Conway/Wolfman/Isabella and others I can't remember; liked Englehart, Gerber and McGregor from that period, but the others produced some truly terrible comics (some good stuff as well, but the majority was awful).Englehart probably seemed good by comparison to Mantlo, et al, but I've found his stuff to be near-unreadable today. Like Gerber, he was trying to write more about real life than those other guys, but he never had Gerber's playful (and readable) storytelling style. Wein and Conway, at least, could usually produce a readable story, but twice in the last few months, I've read multi-issue storylines from Englehart that were a chore to finish. I find his dialogue to be awful, and while he has interesting ideas, the overall execution strikes me as awkward and stilted. By contrast, Wein and the rest may have been churning out the same old stuff, but at least it was entertaining.

[Slam_Bradley]

Englehart probably seemed good by comparison to Mantlo, et al, but I've found his stuff to be near-unreadable today. Like Gerber, he was trying to write more about real life than those other guys, but he never had Gerber's playful (and readable) storytelling style. Wein and Conway, at least, could usually produce a readable story, but twice in the last few months, I've read multi-issue storylines from Englehart that were a chore to finish. I find his dialogue to be awful, and while he has interesting ideas, the overall execution strikes me as awkward and stilted. By contrast, Wein and the rest may have been churning out the same old stuff, but at least it was entertaining.


I've read Conway's entire run on Amazing Spider-Man over the last six-months to a year and I'd say that overall, it compares pretty favorably to Stan's run. No, the high's weren't quite as high, but they were close. And, frankly, for me, Conway's lows weren't as low as some of Stan's worst issues. I think that Conway's work on ASM stacks up pretty well against anyone who wrote Spider-man for an extended period of time.

And he happened to write Atari Force, IMO the best space opera to ever be put in a comic book.

[scratchie]

I've read Conway's entire run on Amazing Spider-Man over the last six-months to a year and I'd say that overall, it compares pretty favorably to Stan's run. No, the high's weren't quite as high, but they were close. And, frankly, for me, Conway's lows weren't as low as some of Stan's worst issues. I think that Conway's work on ASM stacks up pretty well against anyone who wrote Spider-man for an extended period of time.I agree. I'm in the middle of Essential Spider-Man Volume 6 right now and loving it. That's mostly Conway with a little by Wein. I think Conway is the best of that bunch, but Wein's not bad, and great stories like Swamp Thing #1 more than make up for camp like "Krakoa, the Island That Walked Like a Man" (which certainly doesn't disqualify him as "Stan Lee of the Bronze Age", LOL!).

[Reptisaurus!]

Englehart probably seemed good by comparison to Mantlo, et al, but I've found his stuff to be near-unreadable today. Like Gerber, he was trying to write more about real life than those other guys, but he never had Gerber's playful (and readable) storytelling style. Wein and Conway, at least, could usually produce a readable story, but twice in the last few months, I've read multi-issue storylines from Englehart that were a chore to finish. I find his dialogue to be awful, and while he has interesting ideas, the overall execution strikes me as awkward and stilted. By contrast, Wein and the rest may have been churning out the same old stuff, but at least it was entertaining.

I can see that. Engelhart's appeal is all 'bout conceptual play and subtextual depth... It's literary, without the, well, good writing.

I'm a huge fan, mind, but if you base your comics preference more on plot, story construction, and dialouge over naked-ideas and metaphor, than Engelhart's stuff would be tough to read.

[scratchie]

It's literary, without the, well, good writing.LOL (literally!). I couldn't have said it better myself.

if you base your comics preference more on plot, story construction, and dialouge over naked-ideas and metaphor, Mainly, I guess I base my comics preference (as far as the writer is concerned) on whether or not the writing is any good. Ideas alone aren't enough to carry any piece of writing and really, Englehart's ideas aren't even that interesting (my previous comment notwithstanding).