Brokeback Mountain *spoiler* thread (w/ a nod Lester C)

[west3man]

copy/pasted from the other thread:

Anyone that seen a commercial or viewed the trailer knows that the core concept of this movie is two straight men falling in love and beginning a sexual relationship.I never saw a commercial or viewed the trailer, so I didn't know before I saw the movie, last night.

I'm kinda glad I didn't know.

I don’t know if a person is born straight or gay but I do know that at a very young age that a person’s sexuality is hardwired into him or her and there is no changing it. I’m attracted to women and am a heterosexual but it’s not something I’m proud or ashamed of. It’s just the way I am and the way I’ve always been. I suspect the same for gays as well which is why I’m pro gay civil rights because hating someone for their sexuality is like hating someone because they have blue eyes or white skin. I can go in a list of many other reasons why I hated Brokeback mountain but but I don't want to ruin the movie for you Pip.Lester, what if they're bisexual? Who's to say THAT's not "hard-wired" into them?

I don't think it's implausible for the reasons you've given.

I'm gonna start a Brokeback thread with a spoiler-warning, so we can get into specifics.

[Lester C.]

Both men, early in the film, identify themselves as heterosexuals who aren’t, in their words not mine, queer. The only place where they are gay, with the exception of one scene, is in Brokeback Mountain. The locale seems to play a role in the movie as a magical place or a paradisiacal retreat that allows their friendship to take a sexual aspect where it otherwise would not would not. In fact a major theme of the movie occurs when one of the characters tries to take the relationship out of the mountain doesn’t occur because well now this would spoil the movie but it just doesn’t.

Again heterosexuals becoming homosexuals is, as a concept, implausible to me. I’m not saying that hetero and homo sexual can’t deviate from their sexual orientation sexually. A straight man, in prison, will have sex with another man and on the Outside gay men will get married and have kids. However behavior, which is a result of physical action, is controllable and will vary, however one sexual orientation is, in my opinion, immutable and both these men love each other and their physical relationship is a manifestation of that love which I find implausible.

Another failing of this move is the fact that most of the scenes don’t have diolouge. Ang Lee decided to let the music and the fine acting convey the story. Maybe a more observant student of the human condition picked up subtle cues that these men who falling in love but to me it was like one character just tapped another and said ‘hey its time for our sex scene and act two’

Another failing of this movie was that it was all about Jack Twist and Ennis. The other character only served as two dimensional plot devices to progress the story and were summarily and awkwardly written out once their part in the story was done. I could go on and on why I don’t like this movie but you get the idea.

[west3man]

I couldn't get through the entire post because I keep tripping over your assumption that they *weren't* homosexual or BIsexual... simply because they said so... AFTER having had a homosexual experience with one another.

They lived in a place where being gay was like writing your own death certificate, in their eyes (mostly Ledger's character's eyes), so even if they DID feel an attraction to men, they muted it.

Also, I don't think Jack Twist was telling the truth, as he knew it. At least the other guy seemed to be "new" to the experience. Not so with Jack.

That says something.


So does the fact that once they were away from prying eyes and the world's judgement, they made decisions INDEPENDENT of the world's judgements.

[traxler]

Both men, early in the film, identify themselves as heterosexuals who aren’t, in their words not mine, queer.
I think you kind of missed the point; they said it, but it wasn't true.
They deny it at the start, but after their first "pause" of 4 years,
they admit the truth. They're gay, but afraid of society.

[Adam Crocker]

Both men, early in the film, identify themselves as heterosexuals who aren’t, in their words not mine, queer.

I haven't seen the film, but I see a flaw in your statement. It assumes that any assessment they made of their sexuality early on was completely reliable and never involved denial of their sexuality because they came up in an environment that was considerably less tolerant of such things. (And begins in 1963, somewhere in the rural midwest, not the time or environment one would expect to see people be open about being homosexual.)

[Lester C.]

I haven't seen the film, but I see a flaw in your statement. It assumes that any assessment they made of their sexuality early on was completely reliable and never involved denial of their sexuality because they came up in an environment that was considerably less tolerant of such things. (And begins in 1963, somewhere in the rural midwest, not the time or environment one would expect to see people be open about being homosexual.)

Alas your statement about homosexuals being open with themselves and society isn’t true as of 2006. In an era with gay marriage bans, homosexual panic as a law strategy to justify murder, it could be argued that things are worse today. Unlike other minorities I truly most progress the gay movement has made has been rather backwards on the whole. Much smarter men and women are working to better homosexual life in America so I don’t know what gay leaders and activists leaders need to do to effect change but it’s obvious their current strategies aren’t working which is just a shame as we all deserve the right to live how we chose as long as we don’t hurt each other.

[west3man]

Alas your statement about homosexuals being open with themselves and society isn’t true as of 2006. In an era with gay marriage bans, homosexual panic as a law strategy to justify murder, it could be argued that things are worse today. Unlike other minorities I truly most progress the gay movement has made has been rather backwards on the whole. Much smarter men and women are working to better homosexual life in America so I don’t know what gay leaders and activists leaders need to do to effect change but it’s obvious their current strategies aren’t working which is just a shame as we all deserve the right to live how we chose as long as we don’t hurt each other.
I've long-since been concerned whenever the value of a movement is judged only by whether the ideal has been reached. Progress ought to count for something.

[Adam Crocker]

Alas your statement about homosexuals being open with themselves and society isn’t true as of 2006.

I'm aware of that though 2006 and the fight for gay rights wasn't what I was addressing. The film starts in 1963, when such openess does not exist, so I find it likely that both characters are really in denial about their homosexuality when they identify themselves as straight early on in the film, rather than being straight.

[west3man]

I kinda expected it to end (not as crappily as it did, but) with them never getting together. I was never sure, though, so I won't act like "I knew all ALONG!"

But anyway, it was kinda sad I was... kinda right. Two people who really want to be together but never are and for no reason besides fear.

Anybody think Jack Twist died the way the other guy pictured it, as opposed to the way Jack's widow described it?

[Lester C.]

I kinda expected it to end (not as crappily as it did, but) with them never getting together. I was never sure, though, so I won't act like "I knew all ALONG!"

But anyway, it was kinda sad I was... kinda right. Two people who really want to be together but never are and for no reason besides fear.

Anybody think Jack Twist died the way the other guy pictured it, as opposed to the way Jack's widow described it?

Out of curiosity did you like the movie?

[west3man]

Out of curiosity did you like the movie?
I enjoyed parts of it. I thought it was probaby a story that needed to be told, but it was a story that wasn't good in the telling.

So, ultimately, I begrudgingly give it a thumbs-down.

[The Xenos]

I dunno. I think there is somewhat of a choice in sexual prefence. I like to think of it as a fire. I belive you're born with a fire toward one gender. Or both. Or neither. Brain chemistry and hormones are complex. (Lord knows I barely passed my college Neuro-Bio and Cell Signaling courses.) Anyway, you have this fire, though maybe some people can start a fire toward another gender. I think. Not sure if you can extingish it. Lord knows I still can't stop the one toward a certain girl I knew years ago. Though that was more than sexual, that certainly was part of it. And with straight sex I do belive there is a certain need of preproduction which gets mixed in. I know I wanted more than sex with her, I wanted kids too. It was crazy.

[west3man]

Out of curiosity did you like the movie?
Out of curiosity, what about the answer to my question?

Anybody think Jack Twist died the way the other guy pictured it, as opposed to the way Jack's widow described it?

Anybody?

[Jack Flash]

I am pretty sure he died the way Ennis pictured him to.

The bigger question was did his wife know that he was gay?

I say yea, but on Oprah, Anne Hathaway played coy and wouldn't say.

[Cayman]

I am pretty sure he died the way Ennis pictured him to.

The bigger question was did his wife know that he was gay?

I say yea, but on Oprah, Anne Hathaway played coy and wouldn't say.

I'm not sure she always knew, but I think she did at the point Ennis called her.

Cay

[west3man]

I am pretty sure he died the way Ennis pictured him to.

The bigger question was did his wife know that he was gay?

I say yea, but on Oprah, Anne Hathaway played coy and wouldn't say.
If you think he died the way that Ennis pictured him dying, why would his wife lie about it... unless she knew the beat-down was because he was gay?

[west3man]

I'm not sure she always knew, but I think she did at the point Ennis called her.

Cay
I'm not sure if/when she knew, either, but I'm confident she knew by then.

[Jack Flash]

If you think he died the way that Ennis pictured him dying, why would his wife lie about it... unless she knew the beat-down was because he was gay?

she told him the party line. What she told everyone who asked. Not the truth, but in those days the truth wasn't gonna be investigated, and it was likely to shameful for her.

I also think she didn't know originally, but figured it out near the end.

[west3man]

she told him the party line. What she told everyone who asked. Not the truth, but in those days the truth wasn't gonna be investigated, and it was likely to shameful for her.
Isn't that what I said?

Why lie unless she knew the real reason... which meant she knew he was gay? But you questioned whether she knew.

[Lester C.]

Jack mentioned that the state of his marriage to his wife was in such disrepair that they could “phone it in” which leads credence that towards the end she knew and wanted nothing to do with him. The problem is that the time progression in this movie was out of balance and a lot of events took place off screen.

[west3man]

Jack mentioned that the state of his marriage to his wife was in such disrepair that they could “phone it in” which leads credence that towards the end she knew and wanted nothing to do with him. The problem is that the time progression in this movie was out of balance and a lot of events took place off screen.
I've gotta agree. There appeared to be technical shortcomings in this flick.

Between how scenes were cut to how the story was told (although those two things intersect), there are times it seemed like a rush-job.