Yes, To Your Disapointment, Ultimate Iron Man is canon

[Leebenhouse]

It is referenced in the Ultimates Handbook, along with the most of the origin from Ultimate MTU. According to the Handbook, aside from the bit about Tony having been the child of a school teacher and a child celebrity, both origins were mentioned. Though I don't have time right now to completely post my point, the fact that he's a full grown man in the MTU flashback and just a teen in the Ultimate IM book, there is still the possiblity of both for the most part being cannon.

FYI I can't type out all my points right now, as I have class in about 15 minutes, but I think I can provide answers to most of your questions regarding the debatability of his origins.

I think I own all of his Ultimate appearances with the exception of Ultimate War, and the appearances are as follows:

Ultimate Team up 4-5 and Ultimate Spiderman Special(cameo)
Ultimate Six
Ultimate Secret/Extinction #1
Ult. Iron Man 1-5
Ultimates tpbs vol 1 and 2
Ultimates 2 1-9, Annual 1
Ultimate Marvel Universe handbook, X-men and Ultimates

If I'm missing anything, please alert me as I am a bit of a completist, and would like to read any of the other stories.

I hope to see some good posts soon! :D

[Jake V]

I'll believe it when Millar refers to it in the Ultimates.

[dingo]

I spotted a continuity error in ultimates/iron man tonight.

When he has Thor and Cap over for a meal they ask if he was selling the house and he says no he bought it for his mother with his first million, who died at child birth

Unless he made his first million in the uterus that is.....

[Expletive Deleted]

I love the handbooks and refer to them constantly, but they're only just above fanwank in terms of what is and is not canonical. In other words, until something's referenced in an actual comic, it's still pretty iffy.

[agrich]

As others have said. If Millar writes something in Ultimates that contradicts something in another Ult. Iron Man series, that he chooses to ignore and I didn't read, what difference does it make?

[malephoenix]

Why I am disappointed? Seemed like a grood series to me.

[Lurker]

I spotted a continuity error in ultimates/iron man tonight.

When he has Thor and Cap over for a meal they ask if he was selling the house and he says no he bought it for his mother with his first million, who died at child birth

Unless he made his first million in the uterus that is.....

And Blame Card for that and not Millar. I guess big-time authors don't have to do research.

[Loki]

It is referenced in the Ultimates Handbook, along with the most of the origin from Ultimate MTU. According to the Handbook, aside from the bit about Tony having been the child of a school teacher and a child celebrity, both origins were mentioned. Though I don't have time right now to completely post my point, the fact that he's a full grown man in the MTU flashback and just a teen in the Ultimate IM book, there is still the possiblity of both for the most part being cannon.

We're seeing his origin in Ultimate Iron Man. The origin given in UMTU was a recounting given by Peter Parker at a high school presentation. Since Peter was going on second hand knowledge, and wasn't present for any of the stuff he describes, his version can be taken with a pinch of salt; Stark's PR machine has fabricated some of it to cover Tony's mutation and true childhood. That also covers any mention Stark made to other members of the Ultimates about buying stuff for his mother (unless he meant he bought it in memory of her).

[Loki]

I love the handbooks and refer to them constantly, but they're only just above fanwank in terms of what is and is not canonical. In other words, until something's referenced in an actual comic, it's still pretty iffy.
While I'm glad you like the Handbooks, I have to take issue at your comment about the canonicity. Like any comic, they can get something wrong or be contradicted by later retcons, but they are as canonical as any other title.

[jpk]

Eh, not the first time history's been rewritten in comics, so I'm not too upset with it. The uber-regeneration could come in handy. It certainly provides an out for Tony in Ultimates 9, where he's shot in the freaking head.

[agrich]

It certainly provides an out for Tony in Ultimates 9, where he's shot in the freaking head.

This doesn't actually occur in the issue. We still don't know how that scene is going to play out.

And hell, Hawkeye got shot in the freaking head in Ultimates 7, and he's okay too.

[Young Avenger]

Why should I be disappointed? I liked the Ultimate Iron Man mini and I thought the origin was pretty cool.

[Bloodbaer]

I don´t remember the issue exactly, but, if i´m not totally wrong, there was an error in the UMTU with the UFF, too. Perhaps the whole "Ultimate Team-Up" should be considered to be out of continuity.

[Young Avenger]

I don´t remember the issue exactly, but, if i´m not totally wrong, there was an error in the UMTU with the UFF, too. Perhaps the whole "Ultimate Team-Up" should be considered to be out of continuity.

The UMTU issue with the Fantasic Four is the only one that's not considered canon. The rest are.

[Andromeda_Daxamite]

I spotted a continuity error in ultimates/iron man tonight.

When he has Thor and Cap over for a meal they ask if he was selling the house and he says no he bought it for his mother with his first million, who died at child birth

Unless he made his first million in the uterus that is.....


Or the first million he made after taking over his father's NEW company.


Keep in mind, he lost the last one.

[Andromeda_Daxamite]

This doesn't actually occur in the issue. We still don't know how that scene is going to play out.

And hell, Hawkeye got shot in the freaking head in Ultimates 7, and he's okay too.


But if he does get shot, all Jarvis needs to do is shove a few sandwiches down Tony's throat, and he'll be a-ok.

[Leebenhouse]

Oh c'mon now did you actually READ that series? It was whole sandwich machine full of sandwiches. But anyways...

As for the point about MTU, the PR factor does make sense. That is, fo ra lot of it. But the business about him being a child prodigy celebrity is already bunk, as well as the details about his mom. Those are both matters of public knowledge. But the interesting fact noted by the Handbook is that he is the founder of Stark International, while in Ultimate IM the company his father owns is called Stark Enterprises.

Perhaps this is a prelude to an event of Ultimate IM vol. 2?

[Andromeda_Daxamite]

Oh c'mon now did you actually READ that series? It was whole sandwich machine full of sandwiches. But anyways...

As for the point about MTU, the PR factor does make sense. That is, fo ra lot of it. But the business about him being a child prodigy celebrity is already bunk, as well as the details about his mom. Those are both matters of public knowledge. But the interesting fact noted by the Handbook is that he is the founder of Stark International, while in Ultimate IM the company his father owns is called Stark Enterprises.

Perhaps this is a prelude to an event of Ultimate IM vol. 2?


Yes, I actually DID. That's why I said it. And I doubt Tony's at a shortage for just protein (yes, that's exactly what Tony needs in that situation, not just any food. So I suggest to cool off before shooting your mouth off there cowboy. A few sandwiches was just the medium I decided to use. And a few because I didn't want to say "A whole bunch of") for Jarvis to give him. Sandwiches were what was handy. And if you want to go for the record, it wasn't just sandwiches they were feeding him either.

But for the future, I'll make sure to count everything out, and reciprocate it perfectly so you don't have to come around and "correct" me, alright?

[Reggie]

Uhm, what does "Ultimate Iron Man is Cannon". Does cannon mean he's inconsistent or something?

[dingo]

Uhm, what does "Ultimate Iron Man is Cannon". Does cannon mean he's inconsistent or something?

Cannon basically means that it is accepted to be a part of continuity.

So for example...anything in What if?...not cannon.

Anything in a main title book is (usually) cannon

[Reggie]

Ah yea, didnt know about that term. I learned something new today, hurray! :D thanks :)

[Cephus]

And Blame Card for that and not Millar. I guess big-time authors don't have to do research.

Or write decent stories either, but then again, Card sucks no matter what he's writing.

[dingo]

Or write decent stories either, but then again, Card sucks no matter what he's writing.

I appreciate that is an opinion, and only ever meant as one, but i have to ask...have you ever read Enders Game?

[AndAllThatCouldHaveBeen]

So that one issue of UMTU is the only issue of the ultimate universe to be not canon?

[ednemo]

A lot of the information in Ultimate Marvel Teamup is not Canon. All of the Fantastic Four information was not used in the new series.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Cannon basically means that it is accepted to be a part of continuity.

So for example...anything in What if?...not cannon.

Anything in a main title book is (usually) cannon

... and it's spelled with only two n's, not three... canon.

It's not a weapon. At least not in the conventional sense. ;)

[StoneGold]

Cannon basically means that it is accepted to be a part of continuity.

So for example...anything in What if?...not cannon.

Anything in a main title book is (usually) cannon
No. This is a cannon.

http://www.island.net/~quist/images/Cannon2.jpg

What you were referring to is canon.

[Cephus]

I appreciate that is an opinion, and only ever meant as one, but i have to ask...have you ever read Enders Game?

Yup. Doesn't change my opinion.

[Expletive Deleted]

While I'm glad you like the Handbooks, I have to take issue at your comment about the canonicity. Like any comic, they can get something wrong or be contradicted by later retcons, but they are as canonical as any other title.I look at it this way. Any time a handbook and a comic book conflict, the comic book is right. No slight on the handbooks. Like I said, I'm a fan. But they're set apart. They're summaries of stories, not stories themselves. And, as such, I don't think they can really be called "canon" in the same way as a regular comic.

By the way, are you part of the A-Z project? 'Cause I'm really digging #1.

[Loki]

I look at it this way. Any time a handbook and a comic book conflict, the comic book is right.

Not quite true. There are instances where Handbooks have trumped information shown in the comics - generally places where a continuity conflict needs resolving. This has always been part of the Handbooks, though we do it a lot less than the original series did. In those instances, we serve as the official word, clarifying the matter. Ultimate Iron Man's history was one such example. We don't do it in isolation and just make it up. We check with writers and editorial for their rulings; we can propose solutions if those other sources don't already have one, but we don't add stuff without it being checked and approved.

No slight on the handbooks. Like I said, I'm a fan. But they're set apart. They're summaries of stories, not stories themselves.

These days more than in the past editions - whole backstories were revealed for the first time in the original and Deluxe editions. But in general, you are right that they are summaries rather than stories themselves - that's part of the remit of the Handbooks. But the other part is that they are the "Official" summaries - the Handbooks are used (by editorial more than by us) to have the final word on what is and isn't canonical to the 616 (or in this case Ultimate) universe.

And, as such, I don't think they can really be called "canon" in the same way as a regular comic.

Like Spider-Man: Chapter One? We can get things wrong, just like a regular comic. We can be overruled or contradicted by later stories, just like a regular comic. But just like a regular comic, unless and until that happens, the Handbooks are as canonical. They just have slightly different format.

By the way, are you part of the A-Z project? 'Cause I'm really digging #1.

Yes. And glad you're enjoying it.

[Bloodbaer]

I just re-read the whole UMTU run. And think most of it shouldn´t be considered as canon. The only issues working with the rest of the Ultimate Publications are those with Wolverine, the X-Men, Black Widow (and that only because the encounter is mentioned in a X-Men issue, otherwise there are some differences between this Black Widow and the Widow in The Ultimates) and those with Shang-Chi. The other issues are somehow not "Ultimate". Especially Hulk and Iron Man resemble their 616 incarnations.

[Loki]

I just re-read the whole UMTU run. And think most of it shouldn´t be considered as canon.

Marvel disagrees.

The only issues working with the rest of the Ultimate Publications are those with Wolverine, the X-Men, Black Widow (and that only because the encounter is mentioned in a X-Men issue, otherwise there are some differences between this Black Widow and the Widow in The Ultimates)

Not really. What differences did you see?

and those with Shang-Chi. The other issues are somehow not "Ultimate". Especially Hulk and Iron Man resemble their 616 incarnations.

The Hulk story has been referred back to in Ultimates. The Punisher / Daredevil story has been corroborated in Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimate X-Men. The Iron Man story is referred to in the Black Widow story, which was referred to in Ultimate X-Men. The Man-Thing / Lizard story has been referred to in Ultimate Spider-Man, as has the Dr. Strange story. Which only leaves the Fantastic Four issue out of the canonical loop as things stand.

[RabidWolfe]

The MTU issue of the FF is clearly not canon.

Unfortunately, the appearance of the FF in the suppossedly canon Ultimate Marvel Spidey Super Special is hard to reconcile as well.

[Loki]

The MTU issue of the FF is clearly not canon.

Not as things stand, no. That doesn't negate the rest of UMTU though.

Unfortunately, the appearance of the FF in the suppossedly canon Ultimate Marvel Spidey Super Special is hard to reconcile as well.

Only that part of the issue need be negated. The rest remains valid. Apparently we will eventually have the contradictory FF appearances explained.

[Bloodbaer]

The Hulk story has been referred back to in Ultimates. The Punisher / Daredevil story has been corroborated in Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimate X-Men. The Iron Man story is referred to in the Black Widow story, which was referred to in Ultimate X-Men. The Man-Thing / Lizard story has been referred to in Ultimate Spider-Man, as has the Dr. Strange story. Which only leaves the Fantastic Four issue out of the canonical loop as things stand.


I stand corrected. But something disturbes me, perhaps it is the drawing/design.
Hulk is green not grey as in "Ultimates". Iron Man´s armor looks completly different (perhaps it should be some earlier design). Black Widow looks different and she hasn´t got the implants mentioned in "Ultimates".
What I´m trying to say is that UMTU just doesn´t fit in the Ultimate Universe.

[Loki]

I stand corrected. But something disturbes me, perhaps it is the drawing/design.
Hulk is green not grey as in "Ultimates".

And now he's green again. The Hulk seen in UMTU hadn't had Captain America's blood added to the mix. The Hulk currently taking Wolverine apart has been exposed to further radiation, thanks to the nukes they tried to execute Banner with. Different external influences on the transformation cause different skin tones.

Iron Man´s armor looks completly different (perhaps it should be some earlier design).

In Ultimates #2, when Tony is flying around Manhattan, Fury mentions how Tony likes to take new suits out for a spin, then during Tony's meeting with Fury, look over Fury's shoulder, and you'll see earlier models of armor, including the one he wore in UMTU.

Black Widow looks different
She's an undercover operative - she's going to change her appearance now and then. She was undercover in the Latverian embassy.

and she hasn´t got the implants mentioned in "Ultimates".

Hasn't she? Do we get explicitly told "she has no implants"? We don't see the whole file on her in the Latverian embassy, and she's hardly going to tell either her captors or Spider-Man that she has top-secret implants, is she?

What I´m trying to say is that UMTU just doesn´t fit in the Ultimate Universe.

Apart from FF related stuff, the UMTU fits just fine.

[Bloodbaer]

Okay, you´re right again, but I think you still don´t get what I´m trying to say.

Those stories don´t have an Ultimate "feeling". If they had been published as a part of the 616 universe, nobody would have noticed, that they aren´t part of this universe. And that is not the case with other Ultimate stories.

[Exo]

Those stories don´t have an Ultimate "feeling".

It's because there wasn't a need for an "ultimatization" at the time. Bendis has said that his undeveloped version of FF had no true meaning other than pushing the story at hand. Their purpose was to make a brief cameo only to return into obscurity.

[Bloodbaer]

It's because there wasn't a need for an "ultimatization" at the time.

How could there NOT have been an need for an "Ultimatization"? The series was named ULTIMATE Marvel Team-Up. They could have published those stories as "normal" Marvel stories.

[Exo]

How could there NOT have been an need for an "Ultimatization"? The series was named ULTIMATE Marvel Team-Up.

At the time all focus was on two Ultimate titles (the only two possessing some degree of importance), USM and UXM.

Ultimate Team-up was a joke and non-canonical all over. FF wasn't the only copy/paste treatment, there was an adaptation of the Hulk (green with little to no "ultimatization"). There's also the Punisher, Daredevil and Iron-Man, Lizard, Man-Thing, Black Widow. They might aswell have called it something else.

[Beast]

At the time all focus was on two Ultimate titles (the only two possessing some degree of importance), USM and UXM.

Ultimate Team-up was a joke and non-canonical all over. FF wasn't the only copy/paste treatment, there was an adaptation of the Hulk (green with little to no "ultimatization"). There's also the Punisher, Daredevil and Iron-Man, Lizard, Man-Thing, Black Widow. They might aswell have called it something else.
All of which later appeared, were refrenced, or were explained in Ultimates, USM or Ultimate X-Men. :)

[Loki]

All of which later appeared, were refrenced, or were explained in Ultimates, USM or Ultimate X-Men. :)
Exactly. The FF stuff aside, there's been too much cross-referencing for UMTU to be treated as non-canonical.

We've seen Spidey capture the Punisher again in the pages of USM.

We've seen him meet Conners again and discuss their UMTU encounter in USM (ratifying the Man-Thing appearance too).

We've seen Spidey and Wolverine meet Daredevil in the pages of UXM, and in the same story when they meet up with Black Widow, Peter complains about how she stole his web-shooters the last time they met...an event which happened in UMTU.

When Fury is chatting to Bruce Banner in Ultimates #2, they recall his fight with Spider-Man from UMTU as they sit in a restaurant overlooking the devastation that fight caused. The same issue Fury meets up with Tony Stark, and you can see the armour Tony wore in UMTU on display over Fury's shoulder.

[Bloodbaer]

Ultimate Team-up was a joke and non-canonical all over.


Okay, now I´m irritated. Everbody else keeps telling me, that UMTU is canon. But I agree to you, UMTU seemed like a joke to me, too.

Marvel may have tried to knot it into the Ultiverse later by mentioning some events in other Ultimate issues, but to me it won´t be real canon.

[Beast]

Okay, now I´m irritated. Everbody else keeps telling me, that UMTU is canon. But I agree to you, UMTU seemed like a joke to me, too.

Marvel may have tried to knot it into the Ultiverse later by mentioning some events in other Ultimate issues, but to me it won´t be real canon.
Some events? They tied almost everything except the FF stuff into the other Ultimate books. Just look at various posts that were refrenced above. And given that we have time travel coming up in UFF, they'll probably take care of the lil blunder that Bendis caused, and patch the UFF from UMTU into canon also. :)

[Exo]

All of which later appeared, were refrenced, or were explained in Ultimates, USM or Ultimate X-Men. :)

Bendis has said that his "old" UFF was not ment be part of a continuation. The others he could explain however barely qualify IMO.

[Leebenhouse]

Don't forget the craptacular Blade appaearance in the special.

[Frank]

Worst of it is, they`re gonna continue this with another mini-series of this super-brain mutant with crazy parents called Ultimate Iron Man. Man, that`s so stupid. That`s not what Millar had intended at all. That`s like a rip-off of BWS` Weapon X storyline but with an innapropriate character and not as well written and drawn.