Busiek and Johns MUST be stopped!

[JulianPerez]

STOPPED from potentially writing the greatest Superman stories that we've seen in decades. STOPPED from making use of intriguing and underutilized aspects of the Superman mythos. STOPPED from creating the definitive characterization of the character that all other writers will follow for the next ten years.

I mean, if they have the nerve to do all these outrageous things, why, I would have no other choice but to start reading Superman comics regularly again!

Not long ago, I wrote that only one man could save Superman now: and that man was Mr. Silver Age himself, Kurt Busiek, whose incredible skill for characterization and ability to write truly poignant moments fit right in the tradition of great Superman writers, like Elliot S! Maggin, who made Luthor a misanthropic, sympathetic character. Whether it is Bork, Steeljack, the Thunderbolts, or the Juggernaut, Busiek gives his villains and reformed villains true character. One waters at the mouth to see what Mr. Silver Age will do with Lex Luthor, now that thanks to Marvelous Mark Waid, he's got his sense of humor and misanthropy back.

And we might just see the Power Company again - the neatest idea for a superteam seen in a while. They guest-starred in Busiek's JLA, which was unfortunately cut short before its time. If I have any complaint at all about this neat series that made use of classic Wonder Woman foe Dr. Cyber, it is that for the most part, the characters that were in the forefront, the point of view characters were in many ways the least interesting among them, namely Skyrocket. While I admire the progressivism in making a team leader a black female, one wants to see more of Witchfire, a vain, preening character made endearing by their flaws in the tradition of the great Englehart's Mantis, ought to have taken center stage more, as should have the cute Bork baffled that he is actually liked.

I ought to have amended my statement to say that the only persons that can save Superman now, are Kurt Busiek and Geoff Johns.

Yes, Geoff Johns, a man who restored to us Superman of Earth-2, the superhero that started it all, who has actually done the impossible, and made Power Girl, a female character that was mostly directionless, and made her likeable and interesting, giving her a type-A, overachieving personality, and better yet, a clear and correct history.

A while back, I sent a letter to a writer (yes, some of us still send letters the old fashoined way), stating that it is unfortunate that he makes use of a character like Power Girl, who is rather boring and has an inconstant personality. What a difference a Johns makes!

The surest way to tell if a female character is three dimensional or a foil for male characters, according to Virginia Woolf is, do they form friendships with the other characters? For Power Girl, the answer is yes.

Johns also has extraordinary talent with villains. While I do not agree with the idea of inserting Mordru in the 20th Century or for his six-pack and stylish van dyke (he is a Legion villain, after all and belongs in the Legion sphere of influence), Johns nevertheless wrote a terrifying Mordru that made mincemeat, very stylishly, of the JSA. Did you see that part where he turned the Canary into an actual bird? Whoa!

Both of them love the character's past, and thus, it's not hard to imagine them creating a synthesis with the best elements of Superman from all of his various eras. Even Superman's usually abysmal 1986-2003 period has elements that ought not to be discarded.

A few things I'd like to see in Busiek and Johns' Superman:

1) Villains!
Both of these guys make intriguing use of foes. Whether it is Busiek writing Moses Magnum or Geoff Johns with that snake guy in JSA whose name I forget but I do remember it being a great story. How about the Galactic Golem? He had a terrific look. Or the Earth-1 or Earth-2 Captain Future? Or the Microwave Man? Depending on the outcome of INFINITE CRISIS, they might get access to the Phantom Zone criminals, like Superman's evil cousin Cru-El.

2) Superman as hyperintelligent.
Why doesn't Superman make use of that super-science lab he had in the Fortress of Solitude anymore, trying to figure out the meaning of the universe? Sure, Superman's science quests were usually futile; he's been working on a Kryptonite antidote for decades now with no success. But it was always interesting to watch Superman use his big brains to solve problems with some application of some intriguing part of science. Superman was not just physically, but mentally superior, too: he knows every Earth language and has memorized every single type of earthly sealife, for example. Superman should solve mysteries, too - why should Batman have all the fun? Superman has incredible visual powers, but they are at such an extent that visual action doesn't pose a challenge him. Mental action on the other hand...

...What I'm saying is, Superman ought to not only be supersmart, but also be given situations where he can demonstrate it, as well.

3) Superman's characterization as savvy.
A lot of recent writers tend to write Superman as a super-yokel, telling stories about his days on the farm like a character from 'Lil Abner. One can't help but wonder if these writers are missing the point. Morrison had the right of it: Superman has an "aw, shucks" element, but he is so cool and confident that he doesn't have to pose, he underplays.

Superman CAN be defeated, sure. But because he doesn't know all the facts, because a foe outsmarted him or made use of his weaknesses. Not because Superman lacks direction or is uncertain about a course of action. Superman's greatest strength is his absolute moral certainty, his total fearlessness, and his innate incorruptibility.

[TheSaltedSuperman]

I too look to Johns and Busiek for some sort of boosted elevation to the character. Superman for the last few years has been the very definition of generic. I can't say that any of the stories have been outright bad, because most of them have enough redeeming qualities to keep me reading, but for the first time in a few years I'm excited about the team on the super-books.

A few years ago when my friend was trying to reintroduce me into comics he used a lot of Busiek's work to pique my interest. Marvels is still one of my favorite books and right now I cannot wait to see his Superman, and teamed up with Johns, who has really impressed me with JSA and Teen Titans, I'm really looking forward to these new stories.

[Rik Levins]

I mean, if they have the nerve to do all these outrageous things, why, I would have no other choice but to start reading Superman comics regularly again!

The horror!

Yeah, I'm looking forward to a resurgence in greatness for Superman myself. I haven't followed the books on any regular basis for years now, but if Kurt Busiek puts in even half the effort he puts into Astro City, it's gonna be mouth-watering. I like Johns, too, so I have high hopes...

[The Shadow]

I'm also excited for Kurt and Geoff on Superman (though I loved what Gail and Byrne did on Action Comics.)

I have a question though and maybe Kurt can shed some light on it... but Byrne and Simone said they were taken off because of a "policy" to rotate creative teams on the Superman books... does that mean that Kurt and Geoff's runs will be finite with a definite end planned to their run?

[Michael P]

Just so you know, Craig Shutt is Mr. Silver Age.

[protege]

I'm also excited for Kurt and Geoff on Superman (though I loved what Gail and Byrne did on Action Comics.)

I have a question though and maybe Kurt can shed some light on it... but Byrne and Simone said they were taken off because of a "policy" to rotate creative teams on the Superman books... does that mean that Kurt and Geoff's runs will be finite with a definite end planned to their run?
Well, I haven't heard that these guys are doing to be the creative team AFTER this 8 part crossover- which is why I may not stay with the books once it's over.

[Kurt Busiek]

I have a question though and maybe Kurt can shed some light on it... but Byrne and Simone said they were taken off because of a "policy" to rotate creative teams on the Superman books... does that mean that Kurt and Geoff's runs will be finite with a definite end planned to their run?

Gail or John or whomever misunderstood.

The "policy" was to shift around both creators and editors on many of the books as of the OYL break. Not to keep doing it on a regular basis.

In any case, the 8-parter we're co-writing -- "Up, Up and Away" -- is indeed a finite tale.

kdb

[The Shadow]

Gail or John or whomever misunderstood.

The "policy" was to shift around both creators and editors on many of the books as of the OYL break. Not to keep doing it on a regular basis.

In any case, the 8-parter we're co-writing -- "Up, Up and Away" -- is indeed a finite tale.

kdb
Great!

Thanks Kurt.

Other than in JLA have you ever written Superman?

[HartyPotter]

i really doubt OYL Superman is gonna be better than All Star Superman.

[Kurt Busiek]

Other than in JLA have you ever written Superman?

Sure. He appeared in my RED TORNADO mini, and of course in the couple of WORLD'S FINESTs I wrote, though those (like my earliest JLA writing) were all pre-Crisis. He appeared a time or two in POWER COMPANY. And in JLA/AVENGERS.

And when you include variant Supermen, there's SECRET IDENTITY and MAN OF STEEL ANNUAL #5.

kdb

[The Shadow]

i really doubt OYL Superman is gonna be better than All Star Superman. :rolleyes:
Harty... all I can say is don't judge it until you read it. Other than the creative team... what do we know? Both guys are fantastic writers.

And I doubt it could be worse than All Star Superman. :p

[The Shadow]

Sure. He appeared in my RED TORNADO mini, and of course in the couple of WORLD'S FINESTs I wrote, though those (like my earliest JLA writing) were all pre-Crisis. He appeared a time or two in POWER COMPANY. And in JLA/AVENGERS.
When was Red Tornado released? And what issues did you write pre-Crisis JLA? Most of my 22,000 comics are 3,000 miles away (though coming to me FINALLY this summer) but if I don't have them I'll track em down.

[TheSaltedSuperman]

And when you include variant Supermen, there's SECRET IDENTITY and MAN OF STEEL ANNUAL #5.

kdb


Secret Identity was amazing, I remember reading it wishing you would do a mainstream Supes story, I guess this year I finally got my wish. Heh.

[The Shadow]

The "policy" was to shift around both creators and editors on many of the books as of the OYL break. Not to keep doing it on a regular basis.

In any case, the 8-parter we're co-writing -- "Up, Up and Away" -- is indeed a finite tale.
One other question... is your Aquaman a finite story for you or are you onboard as the permanent writer?

[HartyPotter]

:rolleyes:
Harty... all I can say is don't judge it until you read it. Other than the creative team... what do we know? Both guys are fantastic writers.

And I doubt it could be worse than All Star Superman. :p
Well, I think All Star SUperman is fantastic. And although I really like Busiek, their interview on what they're going to do with Supes sounded no different from every other recent writer on Superman that has disappointed us.

[Kurt Busiek]

When was Red Tornado released?

Same year as CRISIS. The first two isues came out before Marv & George blew Reddy up in CRISIS, the second two afterward -- which did wonders for our sales, lemme tell ya.

And what issues did you write pre-Crisis JLA?

#224, 231-232, 240.

Or, to describe them the way people remember them: The Paragon issue, the JLA/JSA crossover during the whole Detroit JLA switchover, with Supergirl rung in, and the Dr. Anomaly issue, the one Sekowsky drew.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

One other question... is your Aquaman a finite story for you or are you onboard as the permanent writer?

I'm the ongoing writer. No planned stopping point.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

Secret Identity was amazing, I remember reading it wishing you would do a mainstream Supes story, I guess this year I finally got my wish. Heh.

Hope you enjoy it!

kdb

[The Shadow]

their interview on what they're going to do with Supes sounded no different from every other recent writer on Superman that has disappointed us.
Ironically enough that's how I think of AS Superman.

To each his own I guess.

[Super Monkey]

Ironically enough that's how I think of AS Superman.

To each his own I guess.

....

Hey Mr. Busiek, who will be handling the art on your run?

*edited by moderator

[The Shadow]

Same year as CRISIS. The first two isues came out before Marv & George blew Reddy up in CRISIS, the second two afterward -- which did wonders for our sales, lemme tell ya.



#224, 231-232, 240.

Or, to describe them the way people remember them: The Paragon issue, the JLA/JSA crossover during the whole Detroit JLA switchover, with Supergirl rung in, and the Dr. Anomaly issue, the one Sekowsky drew.
Thanks Kurt... I'll give it a whirl on tracking the JLA issues down.

I take it your final two Red Tornado issues weren't best sellers huh? ;)

I just checked my list and I have 231 and 232... I just haven't had access to them in over 3 years and likely haven't read em for years before that.

Do you have a copy of every comic you've ever written? Do you COLLECT comics like any other fan (save thousands and thousands of em) or are you just a reader and pass them on?

[Doug Strange]

#224, 231-232, 240.

Or, to describe them the way people remember them: The Paragon issue, the JLA/JSA crossover during the whole Detroit JLA switchover, with Supergirl rung in, and the Dr. Anomaly issue, the one Sekowsky drew.

kdbWho wrote the Martian invasion story that came right before your JLA/JSA story? I really liked that one, and I had thought you did it for some reason.

[Jack Tango]

.....

Hey Mr. Busiek, who will be handling the art on your run?

Pete Woods, currently of Catwoman, formerly of Robin, and Detective Comics, and Deadpool.

[Gail Simone]

Gail or John or whomever misunderstood.

The "policy" was to shift around both creators and editors on many of the books as of the OYL break. Not to keep doing it on a regular basis.

In any case, the 8-parter we're co-writing -- "Up, Up and Away" -- is indeed a finite tale.

kdb

Respectfully, Kurt, that may be the case now, but it was Dan himself who told me that he felt no one should stay on a Super-book for much more than a year, and he was going to try to make that the policy.

I'm sure that's not the case with you and Geoff, but that is what I (and others) were told directly from Dan.

Your pal,

Gail El

[Super Monkey]

Pete Woods, currently of Catwoman, formerly of Robin, and Detective Comics, and Deadpool.

I wonder if he is going to use his more cartoonly style (most things) or his more realistic (catwoman) style?

[Kurt Busiek]

Hey Mr. Busiek, who will be handling the art on your run?

Pete Woods.

kdb

[Doug Strange]

Instead of debating (mindlessly) which title we imagine will be better, why don't we ask Kurt his opinion of the All-Star book and whether or not he's going to utilize any of the elements or concepts we see there.

How about it, Mr. Busiek? How is your Superman similar to the Clark in Morrison's All-Star? How is he different?

And, maybe if all this has already been covered in interviews I can find on the web somewhere, could somebody point me to them?

[Kurt Busiek]

I take it your final two Red Tornado issues weren't best sellers huh? ;)

Heck, the first two weren't best-sellers. The last two just made them look that way by comparison.

Do you have a copy of every comic you've ever written?

I don't think so, but that's more because things got lost during moves than anything else.

Do you COLLECT comics like any other fan (save thousands and thousands of em) or are you just a reader and pass them on?

The way I think of it, I'm just a reader who keeps thousands and thousands of comics because he likes reading them.

We just ordered 25 of those drawer-boxes Augie deBlieck recommended in a recent column. If we like 'em, we'll get enough for the rest of the collection.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

Who wrote the Martian invasion story that came right before your JLA/JSA story? I really liked that one, and I had thought you did it for some reason.

Gerry Conway.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

Respectfully, Kurt, that may be the case now, but it was Dan himself who told me that he felt no one should stay on a Super-book for much more than a year, and he was going to try to make that the policy.

My apologies -- I usually phrase that more vaguely.

I don't know what anyone was thinking at any point, just that different people were apparently saying different things at roughly the same time. So maybe things were just in flux.

kdb

[The Shadow]

The way I think of it, I'm just a reader who keeps thousands and thousands of comics because he likes reading them.

We just ordered 25 of those drawer-boxes Augie deBlieck recommended in a recent column. If we like 'em, we'll get enough for the rest of the collection.

kdbHow many comics are in the Busiek Collection?

[Gail Simone]

No worries, I get what you're saying. ;) I'm just repeating what I was told.

Gail

[Kurt Busiek]

How about it, Mr. Busiek? How is your Superman similar to the Clark in Morrison's All-Star? How is he different?

I've only read ALL-STAR #1 so far.

But the best way to find out the answers to those questions isn't for me to make a list, but for you to read both books if they both interest you, and reach your own conclusions. I'm sure different people will disagree as to where we're similar and where we're not.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

How many comics are in the Busiek Collection?

Let me put it this way:

I stopped counting in about 1984, and I don't remember how many there were then. But up until I started reorganizing my office, I had eight bookcases full of just the TPBs and hardcovers, and that doesn't count the ones that were still in boxes.

kdb

[Doug Strange]

I've only read ALL-STAR #1 so far.

But the best way to find out the answers to those questions isn't for me to make a list, but for you to read both books if they both interest you, and reach your own conclusions. I'm sure different people will disagree as to where we're similar and where we're not.

kdbSorry, Kurt, I guess I just got caught up in having you here and answering questions. I suppose it may not be couth for a pro to comment on other people's work in public (whether positive or negative).

I am interested in your take on Superman, but I've been kind of put-off by Mr. Johns' work in the past. It's still up in the air as to whether or not I'll check it out. That's why I wanted to hear more.

If anyone here on the boards can point me to any interviews Kurt's given on the subject, I'd love to read up.

I'm definitely on-board for Aquaman, though.

[The Shadow]

Let me put it this way:

I stopped counting in about 1984, and I don't remember how many there were then. But up until I started reorganizing my office, I had eight bookcases full of just the TPBs and hardcovers, and that doesn't count the ones that were still in boxes.

kdb
Coooooooool....... :D

[The Shadow]

I've been kind of put-off by Mr. Johns' work in the past.
What put you off Johns' work?

[Adem]

I'm looking forward to this and it will be of the things I add to my reading list once one year later hits. The solicitations I've read have made it seem like a good Superman story that I'd probably regret not picking up later. Also I have nothing against the writers and I haven't seen enough of the artist's work to stop me from buying it.

[Doug Strange]

What put you off Johns' work?Don't want to drift the thread too much. I've just never cared for his style. Too much melodrama, too reliant on continuity.

[The Shadow]

Don't want to drift the thread too much. I've just never cared for his style. Too much melodrama, too reliant on continuity.
I don't think it would be a thread drift to discuss a writers work on an upcoming project you are hesitant to buy... but anyway, I also find he's reliant on continuity... but in this day and age of almost ignoring it that's why I like him (and Kurt).

[Kurt Busiek]

I suppose it may not be couth for a pro to comment on other people's work in public (whether positive or negative).

Depends on the pro, the comment and the situation, I think. I generally don't comment too much, in part because I don't want to get into a situation where someone can figure that if I don't comment, it's because I didn't like something.

I enjoyed ALL-STAR #1, though. It's pretty clear that Grant is apeshit for the Weisinger Superman, and this is his spin on that. I like the Weisinger Superman too, but if I'm apeshit for any one period, it's the Schwartz/Bates Superman. But I like lots of stuff from lots of different periods, so I doubt my Superman would seem like a love-letter to any one particular era. It'd be a new synthesis built out of what I've liked most mixed with my own ideas.

Which describes Grant's, too, except it's what he liked most, and his ideas. I like Weisinger Superman for its operatic interplanetary scope and emotion, and Grant likes little glowing supermidgets shooting out of Superman's hands at will; so even when we touchstone to the same era, it's just as likely to be different elements.

I am interested in your take on Superman, but I've been kind of put-off by Mr. Johns' work in the past. It's still up in the air as to whether or not I'll check it out. That's why I wanted to hear more.

I'd give it an issue, at least -- I'm happy with how it's coming out, but I'll say it certainly feels more like me than like Grant. I like Geoff's work, so I can't really guide you there...

I'm definitely on-board for Aquaman, though.

Excellent!

kdb

[Doug Strange]

Depends on the pro, the comment and the situation, I think. I generally don't comment too much, in part because I don't want to get into a situation where someone can figure that if I don't comment, it's because I didn't like something.Well, crud...I just accidentally put you into that situation, didn't I? Very sorry for that. I tried to couch my reply so it could be looked at either way, but it did kind of put the pressure on for a response. Was definitely not my intention. Man, I hate being obnoxious.I'd give it an issue, at least -- I'm happy with how it's coming out, but I'll say it certainly feels more like me than like Grant.No worries, sorry again. It truly isn't your job to sell me your comics...it's your job to write them the best you can. And I know you will.

I'm a fan of the Cary Bates era, too. Is Mr. Bates still in animation?

[Doug Strange]

I don't think it would be a thread drift to discuss a writers work on an upcoming project you are hesitant to buy... but anyway, I also find he's reliant on continuity... but in this day and age of almost ignoring it that's why I like him (and Kurt).It may not be thread drift, but I don't like coming into a positive thread and being negative for no good reason. I've been a goober enough for one day.

[The Shadow]

It may not be thread drift, but I don't like coming into a positive thread and being negative for no good reason. I've been a goober enough for one day.
Fair enough!

[Kurt Busiek]

I'm a fan of the Cary Bates era, too. Is Mr. Bates still in animation?

I believe so. His most recent credits are on W.I.T.C.H.

And he's certainly still got his comics-writing chops, as seen in last year's DC COMICS PRESENTS HAWKMAN.

kdb

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I'm looking forward to this. Very, VERY much.

I've been a huge fan of Big Blue for years, and I've told only praises of Kurt and Geoff's work (shame on me: I've read to little of their work).

So, Julian, I also have things I'd like to see in the Super-books (consistently shown throughout the years):

1. Super-strength:"Ah, but Superman is already Super-strong", you will say. But I mean god-like, planet-busting, black-hole escaping Super-strong. He's a freakin' god, dammit.
2. Super-intelligence: now that you mention it, I always get mad when he plays dumb, so another guy (i.e., Bat-god) looks cool. This guy can create a paradise out of darkness, he can create robots that look and act like humans, this guy controls technology that goes beyond our wildest dreams.
3. Epic battles: since this guy IS a god, I wouldn't like seeing him stopping commoner criminals. No. He must stop Earth/Galaxy/Universe threatening enemies and plots. Whether they are the evil machinations of Darkseid, or another ultra-powerful guy. And he jobs to no one. He can only be outsmarted, or defeated by Kryptonite or strong magic. NOTHING else.
4. A god among men: how does people react to the fact of a man with god-like powers that saves them every day? And how does Superman sees them? Superman must be a christ-like force of inspiration, hope, and good. And he must produce a feeling of awe in people that no other Superhero can. He's a leader. THE leader. And this guy knows every secret this planet may hold in its entrails: Area 51, Loch Ness, Yeti... He can see it all, and hear it all.
5. The Fortress and his Kryptonian heritage: this speak for itself. What the hell is the deal with Rao? What wonders are in The Fortress, besides what we've already seen?
6. Adventures in space: it would be so cool to see him going into deep space more often. Fighting alien armadas, saving other planets from certain doom.

Several of these points were addressed in some way in the ULTRA cool storyline, For Tomorrow. So that's certainly an improvement.

But like I said, this has to be shwon consistently. So there they are, what I'd like to see in the Superman comic-books.

Just my two cents.

[Grant]

I think I might check this out. Doesn't sound as awesome as James Robinson doing Batman but still could be fun.

[Chris Thomas]

I'm looking forward to this. Very, VERY much.

I've been a huge fan of Big Blue for years, and I've told only praises of Kurt and Geoff's work (shame on me: I've read to little of their work).

So, Julian, I also have things I'd like to see in the Super-books (consistently shown throughout the years):

1. Super-strength:"Ah, but Superman is already Super-strong", you will say. But I mean god-like, planet-busting, black-hole escaping Super-strong. He's a freakin' god, dammit.
2. Super-intelligence: now that you mention it, I always get mad when he plays dumb, so another guy (i.e., Bat-god) looks cool. This guy can create a paradise out of darkness, he can create robots that look and act like humans, this guy controls technology that goes beyond our wildest dreams.
3. Epic battles: since this guy IS a god, I wouldn't like seeing him stopping commoner criminals. No. He must stop Earth/Galaxy/Universe threatening enemies and plots. Whether they are the evil machinations of Darkseid, or another ultra-powerful guy. And he jobs to no one. He can only be outsmarted, or defeated by Kryptonite or strong magic. NOTHING else.
4. A god among men: how does people react to the fact of a man with god-like powers that saves them every day? And how does Superman sees them? Superman must be a christ-like force of inspiration, hope, and good. And he must produce a feeling of awe in people that no other Superhero can. He's a leader. THE leader. And this guy knows every secret this planet may hold in its entrails: Area 51, Loch Ness, Yeti... He can see it all, and hear it all.
5. The Fortress and his Kryptonian heritage: this speak for itself. What the hell is the deal with Rao? What wonders are in The Fortress, besides what we've already seen?
6. Adventures in space: it would be so cool to see him going into deep space more often. Fighting alien armadas, saving other planets from certain doom.

Several of these points were addressed in some way in the ULTRA cool storyline, For Tomorrow. So that's certainly an improvement.

But like I said, this has to be shwon consistently. So there they are, what I'd like to see in the Superman comic-books.

Just my two cents.


all that + 10. perfect points.

and another thing--I too am excited about the upcoming action comics, etc. OYL. but I also have to say that the OYL line-up in general looks incredible. My list will change drastically in March

[Chip Whitley]

Definitely going to pick this up!

I've read works by both Johns and Busiek, and am anxious to see the result of their working together.

Whatever the status of big-blue after Infinite Crisis, I'm sure this story will be great and serve as a terrific start to a new era.

[Super Monkey]

Everything that the devilish puppet master said, plus I would like to see clever stories and that actually make you think and keep you guessing, not every story should have Superman fight out some uber powered mad god, villain of the month club stuff can get old really fast. Rather stories where he has to get creative with the use of his powers, rather than the ultra boring Iron Age punch, eye beam, punch eye beam crap of the past 20 years, let him use his super brain to solve puzzles. I love those tragic sci-fi stories. I would also like to see someone explore comics as a medium and push it's limits rather than try to make them into something they are not like film like some writers today keep failing to do. Superman should be cutting edge and classic at the same time aka timeless.

Note that none of these are plots, that's your job :)

[Guts/Batman]

I think I might check this out. Doesn't sound as awesome as James Robinson doing Batman but still could be fun.

I'm on board too, but I have my worries. But if it is free of lots of IC related stuff, I'm sure I won't mind it too bad.

[JulianPerez]

Everything that the devilish puppet master said, plus I would like to see clever stories and that actually make you think and keep you guessing, not every story should have Superman fight out some uber powered mad god, villain of the month club stuff can get old really fast. Rather stories where he has to get creative with the use of his powers, rather than the ultra boring Iron Age punch, eye beam, punch eye beam crap of the past 20 years, let him use his super brain to solve puzzles. I love those tragic sci-fi stories. I would also like to see someone explore comics as a medium and push it's limits rather than try to make them into something they are not like film like some writers today keep failing to do. Superman should be cutting edge and classic at the same time aka timeless.

Note that none of these are plots, that's your job :)

Good points, Supermonkey. The Flash has been getting all sorts of "speed stunts" over the years (though it may have something to do with him being written by the brilliant Baron and Messner-Loebs); why can't Superman be equally inventive with his powers?

And if you're gonna have somebody as the inspiration for Superman's characterization, it might as well be the brilliant Cary Bates.

Here's a Cary Bates question: supposedly in the 1980s, Cary Bates had an idea for a Superman retooling. As Cary Bates understood the character very well (and how to WRITE someone like Superman without limiting his powers) it might have been very interesting to see what he would have done.

For instance: Bates's innovative but true to the character redoing of Lex Luthor in the 1980s, where he was given a power armor suit and a "Wrath of Khan" esque desire to eliminate Superman because he blames Big Blue for the death of his wife and the destruction of Lexor.

Does anybody know what Bates's idea for a Superman reboot would have been?

Oh, if only... :(

I also agree with your point about making comics less like film. Comics, unlike any other visual medium, can show what is going on inside a character's inner world without resorting to a clumsy means like a voice-over. It is deeply unfortunate that it is no longer "hip" to use thought bubbles.

1. Super-strength:"Ah, but Superman is already Super-strong", you will say. But I mean god-like, planet-busting, black-hole escaping Super-strong. He's a freakin' god, dammit.

Well, SUPERMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES had a Superman that was fairly low powered, but nonetheless still acted the way Superman ought. As long as Superman behaves like Superman should, whatever his power level is, it's fine by me.

That said, I do see your point. It is really irritating when in JUSTICE LEAGUE, Superman was knocked unconscious because of a manhole cover filled with electricity. ELECTRICITY! C'mon, guys, do you ever know who Superman IS?

Cary Bates on the other hand, wrote a lot of stories that were about Superman solving dillemmas. Superman, by his very nature, should not encounter problems with physical action; if he has limitations, they are moral and ethical in nature, not physical.

[Dave Cote]

Great!

Thanks Kurt.

Other than in JLA have you ever written Superman?
You should read Secret Identity it's great and I can lend it to you!!

[PatrickG]

Bates did a draft of Superman V back in 1992 or so.

I'm pretty sure that's why almost all the script drafts until J.J. Abrams' script featured Brainiac.

Bates' plan was to introduce Brainiac and Kandor in the films.

[PatrickG]

BTW, am I the only one who'd like to see Busiek and Waid down the road? It would be interesting to see heirs to Bates and Maggin on the books. (Although in some ways, Loeb was as much an heir to Maggin -- or more, seeing as how Maggin and Loeb have been friends for thirty years -- than Waid is.)

I think Waid was somewhat constricted when doing Birthright by the objective and audience he was shooting for there. I'd like to see him cut loose on a modern day book.

I like Johns' work but am more enthusiastic about Busiek's take because Johns has already worked on a good dozen or so core title Superman comics before. While I'm sure the take will be new (and the approach sounds very collaborative) there are a ton of people in the business who have expressed affection for the character and who I'd love to see on these books. I'd like to see more stories by people who have never written SUPERMAN or ACTION before, y'know?

Plus, Geoff Johns seems like a guy who really does *like* Superman but might be just as happy on Titans East or a second stringer revival.

Whereas guys like Tom Peyer have paid their dues several times over and seem like they'd be happier (and more energized) writing Superman comics than anything else.

For everything a season and all that.

Looks like a stellar run shaping up in any case.

[The Shadow]

You should read Secret Identity it's great and I can lend it to you!!
That would be GREAT! Thanks Dave.

Just finished the Image HC.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

all that + 10. perfect points.

Thanks.

and another thing--I too am excited about the upcoming action comics, etc. OYL. but I also have to say that the OYL line-up in general looks incredible. My list will change drastically in March

Hell yes.

Damn you DC, for making me wait so long.

And damn my comic-book store, for making me wait yet ANOTHER month after the comic book is out in the States.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Everything that the devilish puppet master said, plus I would like to see clever stories and that actually make you think and keep you guessing, not every story should have Superman fight out some uber powered mad god, villain of the month club stuff can get old really fast. Rather stories where he has to get creative with the use of his powers, rather than the ultra boring Iron Age punch, eye beam, punch eye beam crap of the past 20 years, let him use his super brain to solve puzzles. I love those tragic sci-fi stories. I would also like to see someone explore comics as a medium and push it's limits rather than try to make them into something they are not like film like some writers today keep failing to do. Superman should be cutting edge and classic at the same time aka timeless.

Note that none of these are plots, that's your job :)

Agreed.

superman using his Super-intelligence is a completely valid point. Of course, I have to go back o the old PIS, so another guy looks cool.

But something valid, and a great base for cool stories.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Good points, Supermonkey. The Flash has been getting all sorts of "speed stunts" over the years (though it may have something to do with him being written by the brilliant Baron and Messner-Loebs); why can't Superman be equally inventive with his powers?

And if you're gonna have somebody as the inspiration for Superman's characterization, it might as well be the brilliant Cary Bates.

Here's a Cary Bates question: supposedly in the 1980s, Cary Bates had an idea for a Superman retooling. As Cary Bates understood the character very well (and how to WRITE someone like Superman without limiting his powers) it might have been very interesting to see what he would have done.

For instance: Bates's innovative but true to the character redoing of Lex Luthor in the 1980s, where he was given a power armor suit and a "Wrath of Khan" esque desire to eliminate Superman because he blames Big Blue for the death of his wife and the destruction of Lexor.

Does anybody know what Bates's idea for a Superman reboot would have been?

Oh, if only... :(

The same thing happened with the Morrison, Waid, Millar and Peyer "Superman 2000" project. I'd like to see this story published some day.

I didn't know about that Cary Bates reboot. It would be really cool to see what it was all about.

Well, SUPERMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES had a Superman that was fairly low powered, but nonetheless still acted the way Superman ought. As long as Superman behaves like Superman should, whatever his power level is, it's fine by me.

that was pretty much the only thing that annoyed me about that series, and keeps annoying me in the JL/JLU series.

That said, I do see your point. It is really irritating when in JUSTICE LEAGUE, Superman was knocked unconscious because of a manhole cover filled with electricity. ELECTRICITY! C'mon, guys, do you ever know who Superman IS?

Cary Bates on the other hand, wrote a lot of stories that were about Superman solving dillemmas. Superman, by his very nature, should not encounter problems with physical action; if he has limitations, they are moral and ethical in nature, not physical.

HELL YEAH.

That is absolutely right (or at least i should be). I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. And let's hope DC *cough*BusiekandJohns*cough* hears our prayers.

[JulianPerez]

The same thing happened with the Morrison, Waid, Millar and Peyer "Superman 2000" project. I'd like to see this story published some day.

I didn't know about that Cary Bates reboot. It would be really cool to see what it was all about.

The only thing I really know about it is that Cary Bates had proposed it in the 1980s around the same time that Wolfman and Byrne had done theirs, and that further, Cary Bates's reboot would have been done without disposing of the past 50+ years of continuity, stories, plot elements and history the way that Byrne and Wolfman eventually did.

Instead, Bates was among many writers that were fired to make way for the coming of Johnny Redbeard.

We could have had CARY BATES write Superman for a few more years, and totally define his characterization for the next few decades! The phrase "Gee, you sure did blow it, DC" doesn't even BEGIN to cover it.

If anybody knows what Bates's proposal involved, or have a copy of the proposal itself, that would be interesting.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

The only thing I really know about it is that Cary Bates had proposed it in the 1980s around the same time that Wolfman and Byrne had done theirs, and that further, Cary Bates's reboot would have been done without disposing of the past 50+ years of continuity, stories, plot elements and history the way that Byrne and Wolfman eventually did.

Instead, Bates was among many writers that were fired to make way for the coming of Johnny Redbeard.

We could have had CARY BATES write Superman for a few more years, and totally define his characterization for the next few decades! The phrase "Gee, you sure did blow it, DC" doesn't even BEGIN to cover it.

If anybody knows what Bates's proposal involved, or have a copy of the proposal itself, that would be interesting.

And then it could happen like when I knew and read the "Twilight Of The Superheroes" proposal by Alan Moore.

I ended up crazy.

But hey, what's a little bit more of craziness (in the good sense of the word)?

Bring it on!

[Super Monkey]

And then it could happen like when I knew and read the "Twilight Of The Superheroes" proposal by Alan Moore.

I ended up crazy.

But hey, what's a little bit more of craziness (in the good sense of the word)?

Bring it on!

Well, I read the 2000 Superman proposal and it will never happen, well for one thing many of it's ideas have been used already in Birthright, Red Son, and All-Star and more will be used in All-Star upcoming. That not to say that those were like it, they are not, but differents bits and ideas here and there from the proposal have been inserted into those series. So it's pointless to print it now.

more info can be found here:

http://theages.superman.ws/History/2000/

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Well, I read the 2000 Superman proposal and it will never happen, well for one thing many of it's ideas have been used already in Birthright, Red Son, and All-Star and more will be used in All-Star upcoming. That not to say that those were like it, they are not, but differents bits and ideas here and there from the proposal have been inserted into those series. So it's pointless to print it now.

more info can be found here:

http://theages.superman.ws/History/2000/

Well, yeah. But taking into account that Birthright is the new official origin of Superman, it's a pity that not all of the ideas were used there, so to have a definitive version of Superman's origin, with all those ideas included.

BTW, thanks for the link.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

BTW, is there a link where you can read the entire proposal?

[Super Monkey]

BTW, is there a link where you can read the entire proposal?

no there isn't, an I am not allowed to share it with anyone, sorry.

[Yoda]

Is that the proposal that had Lois being killed and the Superman making a deal with Mxy to bring her back with the condition that they no one on earth (including Lois) except Superman would remember they were married?

[Mark Thorson]

Okay, someone at another board has posted that the Wizard issue this week will have the new regular creative teams for Superman, Detective and the Flash. I'll post what they said about the Superman team here, just because it would be so cool if it's true. This is for, I'm assuming, after the "Up, Up and Away" arc, which I'm pretty jazzed about. I'll use the spoiler tags anyway. The new team is allegedly Kurt Busiek and Carlos Pacheco

[Perry Holley]

The Paragon issueI would love love luv for Paragon to make a return appearance. To this day, that is one of my favorite JLA issue.

[Yoda]

Okay, someone at another board has posted that the Wizard issue this week will have the new regular creative teams for Superman, Detective and the Flash. I'll post what they said about the Superman team here, just because it would be so cool if it's true. This is for, I'm assuming, after the "Up, Up and Away" arc, which I'm pretty jazzed about. I'll use the spoiler tags anyway. The new team is allegedly Kurt Busiek and Carlos Pacheco
That would be great, but isn't Pachecoabout as fast as Quietly?

[Mark Thorson]

That would be great, but isn't Pachecoabout as fast as Quietly?

If it's true, I imagine he'd be doing the first arc and they'd alternate him with another artist after.

[Super Monkey]

Okay, someone at another board has posted that the Wizard issue this week will have the new regular creative teams for Superman, Detective and the Flash. I'll post what they said about the Superman team here, just because it would be so cool if it's true. This is for, I'm assuming, after the "Up, Up and Away" arc, which I'm pretty jazzed about. I'll use the spoiler tags anyway. The new team is allegedly Kurt Busiek and Carlos Pacheco

So I guess that Jesus Merino will be the inker.

btw, why are we using spoiler tags

[Mark Thorson]

So I guess that Jesus Merino will be the inker.

btw, why are we using spoiler tags

I dunno really.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

no there isn't, an I am not allowed to share it with anyone, sorry.

Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

Just out of curiosity... Can I guess that the reason behind your apparent selfishness ( ;) ,just joking) is that these guys wouldn't like their idea to be stealed from them?

[Super Monkey]

Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

Just out of curiosity... Can I guess that the reason behind your apparent selfishness ( ;) ,just joking) is that these guys wouldn't like their idea to be stealed from them?

I don't know, I was just told not to share it

[Lurker]

I don't know, I was just told not to share it


Copyright issues I would guess.

You could always summarize or give the general direction the books would have followed.

I myself have always been very interested in reading the infamous 2000 proposal. Seeing as how I loved Birthright and Red Sub while currently enjoying Aii-Star, I'm sure I would have marked out for it.

[Super Monkey]

Copyright issues I would guess.

You could always summarize or give the general direction the books would have followed.

I myself have always been very interested in reading the infamous 2000 proposal. Seeing as how I loved Birthright and Red Sub while currently enjoying Aii-Star, I'm sure I would have marked out for it.

I wouldn't want to spoil any upcoming storylines, your best bet would be to track down interviews done by it's writers where they talk about it, and they will tell you all you want you to know.

[Lurker]

I wouldn't want to spoil any upcoming storylines

That make no sense, buddy. ;p The proposal was done over 6 years ago and was shot down by DC. Also, now that you mention it, Morrison has stated that his All-Star book is going off a totally different idea than his part of the 2000 proposal. How is any of that going to "spoil future storylines?"

Look at this way: Its like not being able to talk about what was in Kevin Smith's Superman Lives script six years after Singer's Superman Returns hits theaters.

[Super Monkey]

That make no sense, buddy. ;p The proposal was done over 6 years ago and was shot down by DC. Also, now that you mention it, Morrison has stated that his All-Star book is going off a totally different idea than his part of the 2000 proposal. How is any of that going to "spoil future storylines?"

Look at this way: Its like not being able to talk about what was in Kevin Smith's Superman Lives script six years after Singer's Superman Returns hits theaters.

All-Star may not be the same thing, but it is still using some of it's ideas.

[Lurker]

All-Star may not be the same thing, but it is still using some of it's ideas.

Maybe so. Maybe so. But far be it for any users here to spoil any potential storylines, eh?
:rolleyes:

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I don't know, I was just told not to share it

Well, either you respect very much that(those) friend(s) of yours, or said "friends" are either Morrison, Waid, Millar and Peyer or DC themselves.

Oh well...

But hey, if there comes the time when you can share that link, don't even think about it. Post it.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

That make no sense, buddy. ;p The proposal was done over 6 years ago and was shot down by DC. Also, now that you mention it, Morrison has stated that his All-Star book is going off a totally different idea than his part of the 2000 proposal. How is any of that going to "spoil future storylines?"

Look at this way: Its like not being able to talk about what was in Kevin Smith's Superman Lives script six years after Singer's Superman Returns hits theaters.

On a sidenote, Kevin Smith's script for Superman Lives is absolutely crappy.

[stealthwise]

On a sidenote, Kevin Smith's script for Superman Lives is absolutely crappy.

Says you! I wants ta see some Thanagarian Death Beast! :D

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Hehehe...

I must admit that the concept art was cool (except for Brainiac's design).

[Lurker]

On a sidenote, Kevin Smith's script for Superman Lives is absolutely crappy.

Didn't much care for it myself, just used it as a comparison and to poke a little hole at the validity of certain claims. ;)

[jwd]

I posted this on that batboard but I figure I'll just add it here in this thread. If you like what Kurt Busiek does in this story then I'm guessing you'll want to stick with the Superman book. I figure this is after the 8 part story.

Anyway -

www.newsarama.com Very end of the new Flash article.

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/NewFlash.htm


Check back Wednesday for a chat with Didio about the upcoming new creative teams for Superman (Kurt Busiek and Carlos Pacheco) and Detective Comics (Paul Dini and Rags Morales).

I guess will get more info Wed. This sounds very promising. (for Batman and Superman both) :)

Now the question is - Who will be on Action Comics and Batman?
Geoff Johns and James Robinson maybe?

I just recently read Superman: Secret Identiy by Kurt Busiek and I loved it. I blame you guys here on these boards for praising it so much and costing me the money. :)

I know its an alternate/elseworlds version but I hope he uses the approach he used in that story with the Superman comic.
I mean letting Clark/Superman do the narrating. Tell us what he's thinking when he flies through the air in his narratives or by the expressions on his face. I don't mean turn the DCU into a world that thinks Superman is a comic book character and not real. :)

[Babylon23]

I just saw this myself. What an amazing creative team. I'm definitely there.

[Super Monkey]

This is awesome, I thought that the 8 part story would just be a big tease, now we get Kurt Busiek full time, it doesn't get any better than that folks :)

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Didn't much care for it myself, just used it as a comparison and to poke a little hole at the validity of certain claims. ;)

And stay that way.

This script would have killed the franchise.

AGAIN.

Just one word from that script, so you can have an idea: Lexiac.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I posted this on that batboard but I figure I'll just add it here in this thread. If you like what Kurt Busiek does in this story then I'm guessing you'll want to stick with the Superman book. I figure this is after the 8 part story.

Anyway -

www.newsarama.com Very end of the new Flash article.

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Flash/NewFlash.htm


Check back Wednesday for a chat with Didio about the upcoming new creative teams for Superman (Kurt Busiek and Carlos Pacheco) and Detective Comics (Paul Dini and Rags Morales).

I guess will get more info Wed. This sounds very promising. (for Batman and Superman both) :)

Now the question is - Who will be on Action Comics and Batman?
Geoff Johns and James Robinson maybe?

I just recently read Superman: Secret Identiy by Kurt Busiek and I loved it. I blame you guys here on these boards for praising it so much and costing me the money. :)

I know its an alternate/elseworlds version but I hope he uses the approach he used in that story with the Superman comic.
I mean letting Clark/Superman do the narrating. Tell us what he's thinking when he flies through the air in his narratives or by the expressions on his face. I don't mean turn the DCU into a world that thinks Superman is a comic book character and not real. :)

WOW.

Just WOW.

I'm onboard.

Ah, who am I kidding? I'd be onboard anyway... :)

BTW, that leaves ONE question:

Who will be on Action Comics?

[JulianPerez]

And stay that way.

This script would have killed the franchise.

AGAIN.

Just one word from that script, so you can have an idea: Lexiac.

It's really, really hard to blame all the idiocy of the Kevin Smith script on Kevin Smith, because of the extensive input had by Jon Peters, formerly Barbra Streisand's hairdresser, who demanded that Brainiac give Lex a cute space dog to sell plush toys and demanded that the final scene be Superman fighting a giant spider. Whatever else can be said about director Smith, he, like Nicholas Cage, was familiar with the property and had respect for Superman.

Although Superman deserves a little better than Deadshot, for Rao's sake. C'mon, Kevin Smith, you couldn't have gotten at least a Superman enemy like the Microwave Man or Blackstone?

[Lurker]

And stay that way.

This script would have killed the franchise.

AGAIN.

Just one word from that script, so you can have an idea: Lexiac.

Dude, I read the script. that was the whole point. And yes, it did suck, but that wasn't the point.

Love the new creative team, I might have to read more comics this year because of it.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

It's really, really hard to blame all the idiocy of the Kevin Smith script on Kevin Smith, because of the extensive input had by Jon Peters, formerly Barbra Streisand's hairdresser, who demanded that Brainiac give Lex a cute space dog to sell plush toys and demanded that the final scene be Superman fighting a giant spider. Whatever else can be said about director Smith, he, like Nicholas Cage, was familiar with the property and had respect for Superman.

Although Superman deserves a little better than Deadshot, for Rao's sake. C'mon, Kevin Smith, you couldn't have gotten at least a Superman enemy like the Microwave Man or Blackstone?

Oh, yes. Jon Peters and his stupid demands. I had forgotten about those nightmarish fact.

But hey, Brainiac with a funny pet (can't remember its name)?

The Eradicator could turn into a suit for Superman?

Come on...

[Dustin Griffin]

2. Super-intelligence: now that you mention it, I always get mad when he plays dumb, so another guy (i.e., Bat-god) looks cool. This guy can create a paradise out of darkness, he can create robots that look and act like humans, this guy controls technology that goes beyond our wildest dreams.


Forgive me if I have missed something here, but I didnt think post-Crisis Superman had super-intelligence.

If I missed out on something in your statement or some recent event, then I'm sorry ahead of time.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Forgive me if I have missed something here, but I didnt think post-Crisis Superman had super-intelligence.

If I missed out on something in your statement or some recent event, then I'm sorry ahead of time.

Don't worry.

Thing is, that there seems to be a contradiction in that regard. First, you see Superman creating Metropia, for example. But then you see him saying that "everyone in the JLA has at least traces of iron in their bodies" (so they can't fight Polaris), when clearly Plasic Man doesn't.

There are clear signs of Superman being Super-smart, Post-Crisis. He's a scientist to begin with. But then you see him acting like a dumb (i.e., forgetting about the proper use of his powers, being the most commonly "forgotten" his Super-speed, or not knowing the obvious).

EDIT: BTW, welcome to the boards.

[Dustin Griffin]

forgetting about the proper use of his powers, being the most commonly "forgotten" his Super-speed, or not knowing the obvious).


Yes, hed does seem to "forget" about his super-speed an awful lot. If he employed it more readily then half of his villains wouldnt even be a threat, i.e Toyman.


EDIT: BTW, welcome to the boards.

Thank you

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Yes, hed does seem to "forget" about his super-speed an awful lot. If he employed it more readily then half of his villains wouldnt even be a threat, i.e Toyman.

And this is when one says that Superman shouldn't be dealing with common criminals.

Thank you

You're welcome.