Claremont's Upcoming Plans For New Excalibur!!

[Beast]

From Comixfan. He also confirms the Hellfire Club being off-limits due to Astonishing. :(
Dear Guys:

FYI -- (afaik) -- since the Hellfire Club seems to be a major element in the forthcoming season of "Astonishing", it's effectively off-limits as far as "Excalibur" is concerned. That said, we have more than enough toys to play with -- between the existing mythology and what's been (and being) established over the first half-dozen issues -- to keep us going for quite a while.

As currently structured, #'s 4 & 5 constitute an arc, which is meant to bring Lionheart on-stage and also introduce another major player, The Black Prince. Art by Steven Cummings and Rick Ketchum.

Next, #'s 6 & 7, will be drawn by Michael Ryan (first pages look fantastic). And (this one's for you, Lisa) it's All-About-Black-Tom, and Cain, of course. I also think there's a better than even chance of Dazzler getting killed again, something she's likely to keep trying 'til she gets it right. (And yes, there's a reason and yes we plan to explain it before the year is out.

#8 is Betsy.

#'s 9-11 are a projected arc, as are 12-14, but since the green-light for the stories isn't official yet, I will say no more.

However -- at this juncture, the series has a green-light through #14, which is to say December of this year. If you want to see more issues, ya gotta buy more copies, and badger your local retailer to up-order accordingly. There are some fun stories planned for the months (and dare I say, years) ahead and if you want to read 'em -- well then, you know what to do.

Cordially,

Chris Claremont

[xakko]

Interesting... that little "afaik". There is much speculation about whether the AXM Hellfire Club is, in fact, real.

Perhaps Marvel wants to portray it as real for some sort of "reveal" later.

I dunno.

But I'll keep buying New Excalibur. I know my LCS has sold out of every copy.

[Joe Zool]

Interesting... that little "afaik". There is much speculation about whether the AXM Hellfire Club is, in fact, real.

Perhaps Marvel wants to portray it as real for some sort of "reveal" later.

I dunno.

But I'll keep buying New Excalibur. I know my LCS has sold out of every copy.

Ditto. Anything to keep him on at least one book. :)

[Beast]

Would be nice if Marvel lets CC bring in Bogan and Vargas into the mix as well, since he never got to finish playing with them. Especially since Betsy's supposed to be tracking down Vargas at some point.

[Blackcat]

Seems we've found the reason why Betsy leaves the Uncanny title, llok at #8. Think she'll join the team, don't you?

[streator]

i don't mind cc not being able to use the hellfire club.
i'm not really looking forward to another black tom/juggernaut story either.

[Beast]

Seems we've found the reason why Betsy leaves the Uncanny title, llok at #8. Think she'll join the team, don't you?
Not really. CC said for the moment she's only going to make the one guest appearance in New Excalibur #8, and that's it. Which could be a tease that she's either going into limbo again, or we'll see a new series with her and some of CC's various 198 saves at some point. :)

[Neolucifer]

I'm not thrilled neither by Black Tom's return . I'd be far more interested by "bigger" plots and villains , like Bogan , and A Vargas at last showing us , why he is indeed powerful .
Still i'll be there .

[Beast]

I for one am happy to hear we'll get an appearance by Black Tom again. He's been a part of Juggernaut's life for so long, it's about time that the two meet again, in something not written by Chuck Austen. And since he doesn't need his powers to be a bastard, let's hope that he's either been depowered, or like Iceman lost his crappy Treebeard 'Secondary Mutation' and just has his energy powers again. :)

[Blackcat]

Wasnt it stated that BT was de-powered?'

By the way: how you like my new avatar guys?

[lament]

I'm especially interested in the return of Black Tom! :D

[Beast]

Wasnt it stated that BT was de-powered?'

By the way: how you like my new avatar guys?
He was on Wizard's list, but it's not trustworthy. I don't recall if Claremont said one way or another and Comixfan's been pruning, but I believe that he is indeed depowered as well. :)

[fishtaco]

I'm so ticked. I hate Whedon and the editors for letting him steal the Hellfire plot from Claremont. That's just rude. That just annoys me so bad. New Excalibur is sounding good aside from this problem, though. I wish Claremont would take over for Milligan on X-Men.

[Ivan Isaacs]

He also confirms the Hellfire Club being off-limits due to Astonishing. :(

Thank god!
CC should try to create something new instead of rehashing stories he told before and before that and before even that.

I like his writing, I really do, but his latest UCM arc started to only appeal to me, when Bachalo came on board. The rest (and even the EoG arc) is just nothing more then rehashing old stories.

And I thought that sales were good and even then the series is only greenlighted to number 14? YEESH!
What does this say about X-Factor? :/

[fishtaco]

Thank god!
CC should try to create something new instead of rehashing stories he told before and before that and before even that.imo, rehashing his stories isn't as bad as rehashing other writer's stories :p

[Twigglet]

Thank god!


And I thought that sales were good and even then the series is only greenlighted to number 14? YEESH!
What does this say about X-Factor? :/

I think it's all to do with howthe numbers hold on from here, both series had a great start.

X-factor #1 56,100
X-factor #2 45,000


New Excalibur #1 58,300
New Excalibur #2 48,000

Both had a great opening, but 10,000 over two issues for both series is nothing spectacular, it needs all the sales it can get if it's going to level out.

[Faded]

I'm kinda glad we're not going with CC's Sage/Sunspot/Viper/Courtney lineup.

imo, rehashing his stories isn't as bad as rehashing other writer's stories :p

IMO I don't think so as long as the writer adds his/her own personal twist or zest to it.

[tunasammiches]

Wait...when and where does it hint that Betsy is leaving Uncanny and has anything to do with the 198 storyline?

[Novaya Havoc]

"I also think there's a better than even chance of Dazzler getting killed again, something she's likely to keep trying 'til she gets it right. (And yes, there's a reason and yes we plan to explain it before the year is out."



First she's a man, now she's the team's "Kenny."

Joy.

And to think, people tell me to "respect" Claremont.

[Beast]

Wait...when and where does it hint that Betsy is leaving Uncanny and has anything to do with the 198 storyline?
CC already confirmed that Betsy is leaving the Uncanny cast.
Dear One-&-All:

To the best of my knowledge, my final issue on Uncanny is the concluding issue of the "First Fallen" arc, with Chris Bachalo, #474. Rachel will be staying in Uncanny, Betsy will not.

Cordially,

Chris Claremont
Dear Lisa:

At the present time, Betsy's appearance in NEX will be limited to #8.

Cordially,

Chris Claremont

[steve2275]

Interesting... that little "afaik".
what does that stand for?

[Sentinel K]

Betsy/Psylocke is my favorite character!


She better not be limbo-bound!



Or I may cry. :(

[Beast]

First she's a man, now she's the team's "Kenny."

Joy.

And to think, people tell me to "respect" Claremont.
If it's part of a larger story and explained, it's a bit early to judge. :)

BTW, might be time for glasses if you think Dazzler is a man now. ;) :p

[Novaya Havoc]

If it's part of a larger story and explained, it's a bit early to judge. :)

Yeah... multiple near-death scenarios sounds so riveting, I guess I should see for myself. :rolleyes:

[X-Men Forever]

I like his writing, I really do, but his latest UCM arc started to only appeal to me, when Bachalo came on board.

Chris Bachalo's art can make any writer's story look great.

[Beast]

Chris Bachalo's art can make any writer's story look great.
Yeah, because the art is so horrid you have to focus on the story much more. :D

[fishtaco]

IMO I don't think so as long as the writer adds his/her own personal twist or zest to it.A writer can add new "twists" or zest to his/her own plots too, right?

[Will.S]

I'm glad that they let Whedon handle his Hellfire Club story instead of Claremont.

Not a knock against the writer but I do feel that he did his best work with them over the years and it's time to start something new and let Whedon do what he wants to do with them (who I think has a more interesting roster than what Claremont had going with Viper, Sunspot, Selene and Opal-Lun Sat-yr-9).

His New Exaclibur stuff sounds interesting, I'm looking forward to the Black Tom/Juggernaut confrontation and the Dazzler stuff although I admit to being confused as to how she keeps coming back from the dead.

[Fede]

i dont think there's just one hellfire storyline, i think there are two. the one that whedon want us to believe, wich is only happening in emma frost's head (the real villain is cassandra), and the uncanny storyline, wich is the real one, and has been postponed so that whedon's storyline doesnt get spoiled-


but cc's hellfire hasn't been dropped, and we'll see more of it in excalibur. (that's what i hope since he has been replaced from uncanny...)

that would be my choice, and the one i like most. i'd be very dissapointed with anything else.

[Ivan Isaacs]

imo, rehashing his stories isn't as bad as rehashing other writer's stories

Right, that Fury arc was stinker. :D

Both had a great opening, but 10,000 over two issues for both series is nothing spectacular, it needs all the sales it can get if it's going to level out.

Thanks for the info. :)
Hmm... I'd say those are normal drops. Hopefully it will level out soon because both series received mostly good reviews IIRC.

Chris Bachalo's art can make any writer's story look great.

Even those of Brian Haberlin? I highly doubt it. :D
That said I liked the few GX issues I have. I hated his first run on UCM during the Harras-debacle and wasn't able to read "Witching Hour". I grew quite on his pencils again with "Assault on Weapon Plus" and since then I'm a fan. It's just too bad that Tim Townsend is rarely inking him anymore. He belongs to Bachalo like Terry Austin belonged to John Byrne. :)

[Dr Manolis Dooplove]

Even those of Brian Haberlin? I highly doubt it. :D
That said I liked the few GX issues I have. I hated his first run on UCM during the Harras-debacle and wasn't able to read "Witching Hour". I grew quite on his pencils again with "Assault on Weapon Plus" and since then I'm a fan. It's just too bad that Tim Townsend is rarely inking him anymore. He belongs to Bachalo like Terry Austin belonged to John Byrne. :)

chris bachalo was only ever good when mark buckingham was inking him imho ;)

[Faded]

A writer can add new "twists" or zest to his/her own plots too, right?

Yeah.

1010

[atoningunifex]

Excalibur was the only of the X-Titles I was thinking of keeping up with- but I'm probably going to drop it as well. The art is spectacularly boring and there's really nothing in this little hint session that sounds all that exciting.

[X-Men Forever]

Excalibur was the only of the X-Titles I was thinking of keeping up with- but I'm probably going to drop it as well. The art is spectacularly boring and there's really nothing in this little hint session that sounds all that exciting.

I do not buy New Excalibur because of the art. Ryan draws the characters looking like 12-15 year old kids in the face.

[Novaya Havoc]

Michael Ryan announces new Dazzler character design!!! (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/misc/dazz-kenny.jpg)
omg they killed ali.

Being optomistic, maybe the Black Tom arc will be decent? I don't know, considering I hate hate hate hate hate what's happening with Dazzler in this book, I don't like Sage, I don't like Black Tom, I don't like Lionheart... blah.

I think the British backdrop (sorry fellow friends in the UK) kills this book entirely. I've said it since day 1, but there just seems to be a great disconnect because of the location. That's probably because there doesn't seem to be a compelling need (yet) for this super-team OR its location.

If Claremont wants this title to sell, he needs to get this team going and now. Give it a purpose. As a review on X-Axis put it, it seems like the whole premise is simply "Superheroes... IN ENGLAND!" without any other real rhyme or reason.

Until that develops, all specific plot twists and previews seem rather beside the point.

-B

[Doom Hammer]

I'm so ticked. I hate Whedon and the editors for letting him steal the Hellfire plot from Claremont. That's just rude. That just annoys me so bad. New Excalibur is sounding good aside from this problem, though. I wish Claremont would take over for Milligan on X-Men.

Apparently, the post you read replaced "As far as I know" and "it seems" with "X-editors sould be X-ecuted" and "Kill the bastard Whedon!".

Everyone has to cope with editorial. Why is Chris Claremont more entitled to tell a story than anyone else?

[Keith_Martineau]

He's not exempt from editorial. The problem is that he's had a proven bad history with editors completely screwing with him, while other writers (such as Bendis or Whedon) being given FAR more leway for their own stories.

Claremont is by far the most editorially mismanaged writer today.

I love Bendis and Whedon, but you can definately tell that what you are reading, from them, hasn't been mucked with much, awhile I also love Claremont, and it's obvious he gets mucked with a lot.

[X-Men Forever]

He's not exempt from editorial. The problem is that he's had a proven bad history with editors completely screwing with him, while other writers (such as Bendis or Whedon) being given FAR more leway for their own stories.

Claremont is by far the most editorially mismanaged writer today.

I love Bendis and Whedon, but you can definately tell that what you are reading, from them, hasn't been mucked with much, awhile I also love Claremont, and it's obvious he gets mucked with a lot.

This is because Marvel is not going to mess with their bread and butter money maker writers like Bendis and Whedon. Marvel could care less whether they lose Claremont from their writers stable, but they would sh*t bricks if Bendis said he was leaving. When Claremont becomes Marvel's #1 guy, then he will get more editorial leeway with his stuff, untill then, he will do as he is told.

[Flameworthy]

First she's a man, now she's the team's "Kenny."

Joy.


Tell me about it.:rolleyes:

I do like Lionheart however, so I'm excited about reading the next arc. I'm also glad to see another artist on the book, even though he's just a fill in. I still don't like Ryan's art.

[Brian M.]

Chris Claremont = God.


Wait sorry forgot he's just a writer. His creations are all properties of MARVEL not CLAREMONT. If Whedon want's to use Hellfire Club and the story he has for them is better than Claremont's, let Whedon use them. New Excalibur sounds alright, I kinda don't like that Betsy is going over there, I was hoping she would stay w/ the X-Men.

[slively]

Apparently, the post you read replaced "As far as I know" and "it seems" with "X-editors sould be X-ecuted" and "Kill the bastard Whedon!".

Everyone has to cope with editorial. Why is Chris Claremont more entitled to tell a story than anyone else?



I love you Doombunny!! :D

I am enjoying NE. It is one of the books I look forward to now. I did not like the old Excalibur. The dialogue bugged me a lot. It was way over the top. But NE I am liking. I do not want Dazz killed though!

[xakko]

I love you Doombunny!! :D

I am enjoying NE. It is one of the books I look forward to now. I did not like the old Excalibur. The dialogue bugged me a lot. It was way over the top. But NE I am liking. I do not want Dazz killed though!
Do you mean Excalibur vol 2?

'Cause Vol 1. rocked so hard!

[Beast]

Do you mean Excalibur vol 2?

'Cause Vol 1. rocked so hard!
I think she's referring to Excalibur Vol. 3. Which I happened to like. :)

[Jesse Newcomb]

Chris Bachalo's art can make any writer's story look great.


Oh yeah, he made Akira Yoshida's AOA X-Men mini look like gold. :p

[Beast]

Oh yeah, he made Akira Yoshida's AOA X-Men mini look like gold. :p
To be fair, noone could rescue that massive crapfest of continuity errors. ;) :D

[Ivan Isaacs]

I liked that story very much.
But X-Fans needed their "Austen bash" fix and since Austen wasn't available anymore for that Yoshida was obviously a pleasant fill-in.

Oh, and the return of Lionheart made me pick up the NE book in the first place as I was going to ignore the book at first even with Nocturne in it.

And Psylocke is NOT joining NE. But she also won't be in Uncanny anymore as it seems (I bet Brubaker kills her in his first story *g* ).

[steve2275]

Oh yeah, he made Akira Yoshida's AOA X-Men mini look like gold. :p
bach seemed better there than on uncanny

[The Sword Is Drawn]

This kinda ticks me off! :mad:

Let us not forget that the Hellfire Club began in England, and we saw such a promising useage of the English branch (Let's not forget Brian and Betsy's father was a mwember) during Excalibur's original run. I'm sure Whedon will do the HC justice, and if it get's rid of Emma fecking Frost for a while, I'll be happy, but it's greatly annoying, because Claremont first outlined plans for using the Hellfire Club back when New Excalibur was announced. Wasn't that the larger reason why Sage was on board.

Not sure what's going on there, at all.

Still the other plotlines sound plentifully good enough. Looking forwards to Lionheart appearance, and Black Tom loose ends are plentifully good.

And if Betsy joined the team that would make my freckin day. :D

It just annoys me that what was originally billed as a key feature of the books second arc, cannot be dealt with over the next year because, once again, Joss gets first dibs... It wouldn't bother me so much if his book was actually MONTHLY. But it stunts the development of Excalibur somewhat. And as the book has barely begun that was pretty stupid move for Marvel editorial to have made...

In the coming year I would also like to get to finding out if Peter is going to be chasing down his estranged (And badly messed up by stupid writing) sister, Romany.

We last saw her in X-Force, her body being used as a host for an alien species who pln to use the Earth, once mankind had gone...

I thought that kinda sucked, as she had been introduced as a mystic, black magic, kind of character, which was infinitely more interesting...

[Babylon23]

The more I think about it, the happier I am that Claremont is off Uncanny. I'm a big fan of his writing on the series, but it seems like so many of his stories are getting axed/discarded due to editorial. I've been eagerly awaiting the culmination of his HC storyline, only to find out now that it won't be covered anytime soon. I have no interest in Whedon's Astonishing HC.

On Excalibur, CC may have a little more freedom. He's seperated from the core books, so he may get a chance to actually complete his storylines without interference.

I'm happy that Marvel have given him at least one title to work with.

[Beast]

I liked that story very much.
But X-Fans needed their "Austen bash" fix and since Austen wasn't available anymore for that Yoshida was obviously a pleasant fill-in.

Oh, and the return of Lionheart made me pick up the NE book in the first place as I was going to ignore the book at first even with Nocturne in it.

And Psylocke is NOT joining NE. But she also won't be in Uncanny anymore as it seems (I bet Brubaker kills her in his first story *g* ).
Now that's just a gross generalization. The AOA: 10th Anniversary could have been really good. But it was mangled by bad writing, huge continuity errors, and mistakes that don't match up to the original canon of the AOA. It was bland and mediocre, but thankfully at least the AOA: 10th Anniversary one-shot and the Exiles visit was good. So Yoshida did not adopt our so-called need to bash a writer, his stuff just wasn't very good. X4 was awful as well, but his recent Kitty Pryde mini very very good. :)

[Cowlander]

Now that's just a gross generalization. The AOA: 10th Anniversary could have been really good. But it was mangled by bad writing, huge continuity errors, and mistakes that don't match up to the original canon of the AOA. It was bland and mediocre, but thankfully at least the AOA: 10th Anniversary one-shot and the Exiles visit was good. So Yoshida did not adopt our so-called need to bash a writer, his stuff just wasn't very good. X4 was awful as well, but his recent Kitty Pryde mini very very good. :)
I agree actually. I loved Austens run and alot of the complaints leveled against the AoA 10th werent on the same level as the hate against Chuck.

I dropped it after issue 2 I think. It just wasnt fun and tried to hard to recreate the current cast/plots in the AoA world. Instead of actually continuing the plots from the original storyline.

EDIT......

Beast you know you NEED to bash every now and then. :)

[The Mirrorball Man]

I've read the first two issues of New Excalibur and I didn't understand what the series was supposed to be about. Is this just a book about random X-Men related characters living in the UK? What am I missing here?

[AceOfSpades]

I'm so ticked. I hate Whedon and the editors for letting him steal the Hellfire plot from Claremont. That's just rude. That just annoys me so bad. New Excalibur is sounding good aside from this problem, though. I wish Claremont would take over for Milligan on X-Men.

I think Whedon could do well with the hellfire plot

Saying that--- I'm really looking foward to the upcoming months, just cause I've always liked Excaliburs incarnations (the genosha one doesn't count). I really am confused about CC statement about Ali finally dying though

[DDM]

I think Whedon could do well with the hellfire plot

Saying that--- I'm really looking foward to the upcoming months, just cause I've always liked Excaliburs incarnations (the genosha one doesn't count). I really am confused about CC statement about Ali finally dying though

Chris Claremont planned to kill Alison Blaire in Uncanny X-Men #246-247 when the X-Men fought the Nimrod/Master Mold II amalgam. However, Marc Silvestri asked Claremont not to kill Dazzler so he did not.

[Novaya Havoc]

I've read the first two issues of New Excalibur and I didn't understand what the series was supposed to be about. Is this just a book about random X-Men related characters living in the UK? What am I missing here?

That's the basis for most negative reviews (which are the overwhelming majority of reviews, sad to say), actually.

Claremont purists will of course argue that CC needs unrestricted control and years of build-up for the "golden payoff." But really -- it's had 7 issues of introduction (even more if you count the squandered Mojo arc in Uncanny) -- and no purpose. Other than "Your heroes... in ENGLAND!"

I would have been more satisfied with Captain Britain individually recruiting these characters with a retro, hackneyed "The UNITED KINGDOM needs YOU, Juggernaut/Dazzler/Nocturne!" Make the thesis of this work be at the beginning, please, not 7 issues in.

I really am confused about CC statement about Ali finally dying though

He just said she'll "die again." Not indefinately or "for good." Dazz was one of the big draws to this book. There will be some reason behind why Dazzler is dying continually. Just like there will be some explanation as to why Evil X-Men wanted Nocturne. Or why Pete Wisdom continues to exist.

It all sounds pretty boring to me. And I don't think anyone looks forward to a solicit about a character dying... again.

-B

[Babylon23]

Hi Novaya Havoc,

This isn't designed to start and argument, just an honest quesiton:

I was just wondering, what is it about Claremont's Dazzler that you dislike so much? I understand your can''t stand her current appearance, but are there bigger character and plot issues that you dislike?

[Novaya Havoc]

What upsets me about CC's Dazzler is the blatant DISregard for continuity.

Dazzler's entire backstory, family issues, carrer issues, and more were developed outside of CC's pen. CC blatantly disregards it. And, more to the point, I find this very consistent with his portrayal of other characters that he did not write.

Whenever he writes her, he disregards her past, and instead writes her how he sees fit.

Now, normally, I would not find this a problem. I like it when writers try new things. But CC CONSTANTLY references his own works, even when they're 10+ years old. Yet he rarely -- if ever -- acknowledges the works of others.

Dazzler was written most competently under other pens than he did in Uncanny X-Men.

As far as New Excalibur Dazzler, I don't feel the man had any interest in her. He wanted to kill her in UXM. He has no interest in using her in X-Men: The End. To him, I wager, she is not a legit X-Man. Why write her, then? I put it in the hands of editorial. And editorial, likewise, puts her in a horrendous outfit.

By and large, he's written her well in New Excal. I am content, although I don't care for the silly rocket-launcher powers. But by and large, I'm happy. Major roadblocks? He will NEVER discuss Dazzler's past. He'll discuss Ororo's. Jean's. Cyclops'. Kitty's. Sage's. Not Dazzler's. Why? He didn't write it.

Two? The look. It's a sad way to try and cash in on "Ultimate." Readers would have appreciated Dazzler in almost any form. The brought her back for Ultimate, and now they think that's the ONLY form of Dazzler that will sell. Not true. Write her competently, and she will sell.

The fans deserve better. And CC needs to suck up his own ego and deal with the character's past.

[Beast]

They're cashing in on Ultimate Dazzler? Uh, no. There is no comparison between the look or character of either version. Sure they have the same name and powers, but they're totally different characters. In fact, Ultimate Dazzler would likely beat the living daylights out of 616 Dazzler, no matter what. As for Ali's new look, you seem to want CC to ignore the fact that Dazzler was in Mojoworld for years and is not the same character from the Dazzler comics from 15-20 years ago. She's evolved, disco is dead, she's not trapped in the past. Just be thankful he's not refrencing her overdosing on drugs like in Marvel Knights Spider-man. :)

[DDM]

What upsets me about CC's Dazzler is the blatant regard for continuity.

Dazzler's entire backstory, family issues, carrer issues, and more were developed outside of CC's pen. CC blatantly disregards it. And, more to the point, I find this very consistent with his portrayal of other characters that he did not write.

Whenever he writes her, he disregards her past, and instead writes her how he sees fit.

Now, normally, I would not find this a problem. I like it when writers try new things. But CC CONSTANTLY references his own works, even when they're 10+ years old. Yet he rarely -- if ever -- acknowledges the works of others.

Dazzler was written most competently under other pens than he did in Uncanny X-Men.

As far as New Excalibur Dazzler, I don't feel the man had any interest in her. He wanted to kill her in UXM. He has no interest in using her in X-Men: The End. To him, I wager, she is not a legit X-Man. Why write her, then? I put it in the hands of editorial. And editorial, likewise, puts her in a horrendous outfit.

By and large, he's written her well in New Excal. I am content, although I don't care for the silly rocket-launcher powers. But by and large, I'm happy. Major roadblocks? He will NEVER discuss Dazzler's past. He'll discuss Ororo's. Jean's. Cyclops'. Kitty's. Sage's. Not Dazzler's. Why? He didn't write it.

Two? The look. It's a sad way to try and cash in on "Ultimate." Readers would have appreciated Dazzler in almost any form. The brought her back for Ultimate, and now they think that's the ONLY form of Dazzler that will sell. Not true. Write her competently, and she will sell.

The fans deserve better. And CC needs to suck up his own ego and deal with the character's past.


Dazzler joined the X-Men out of survival. He examined Dazzler's backstory in Uncanny X-Men Annual #11; her life is being pulled in several different directions at once. Furthermore, since Dazzler: The Movie backfired, her career turned to dust. Before she joined the X-Men, she was one of Lila Cheney's new band members, although she wanted the spotlight herself. I think Claremont wrote Alison very well considering she never wanted to be an X-Man in the first place.

[Novaya Havoc]

Dazzler joined the X-Men out of survival. He examined Dazzler's backstory in Uncanny X-Men Annual #11; her life is being pulled in several different directions at once. Furthermore, since Dazzler: The Movie backfired, her career turned to dust. Before she joined the X-Men, she was one of Lila Cheney's new band members, although she wanted the spotlight herself. I think Claremont wrote Alison very well considering she never wanted to be an X-Man in the first place.

DDM. You look at continuity. I look at editorial. If it weren't for me, the specifics of a lot of editorial decision regarding Dazzler (including her origin) wouldn't even be out there. So relax.

1. Claremont put Ali in New Mutants, yes -- but as second-rate to his own singing creation. Lila Cheney. He carried this in UXM. So? It lessened the only other MU Mutant not in his control and put her squarely in her place compared to his own creations.

2. The ONLY references he made to the Dazzler series were (major or minor):
1. Rogue/Dazzler rivalry, which was easily resolved.
2. A few comments in X-Men vs Avengers/FF where she mentioned encountering Doom/Avengers/FF before, which Wolverine brushed aside.
3. The OZ Chase story (228).
4. She mentioned having a mother and sister in one issue as a throwaway.
5. A couple references to her lawyer/singer life dilemma: UXM Annual 11, and UXM 247.

That's it. CC never developed her backstory, nor did he address it. He would often reference the back-stories and trials of his other characters, though. Why? Because he developed them over years of stories. CC trademark.

And Beast... NEX Dazzler is NOT a marketing parody of Ultimate Dazzler? Give me a break of that kit-kat bar. Now.

And I have EVERY "Mojoworld" appearance of Dazzler. Never did she wear chaps or have some odd-colored hair. Making her more physical and aggressive, yes. Trying to make her a rebel punk? That's the influence of Ultimate.

[Beast]

And Beast... NEX Dazzler is NOT a marketing parody of Ultimate Dazzler? Give me a break of that kit-kat bar. Now.

And I have EVERY "Mojoworld" appearance of Dazzler. Never did she wear chaps or have some odd-colored hair. Making her more physical and aggressive, yes. Trying to make her a rebel punk? That's the influence of Ultimate.
Do you have all of her appearances after she returned from Mojoworld and vanished into obscurity after losing Longshot and the life she built with him. Because there are none, she's changed as a person during her time in Mojoworld, and her new look and style are a part of what happened after that. There is no comparison between the two versions of Dazzler currently in comics. The NEX one is certainly not a rebel punk, and certainly nowhere near as hardcore as Ultimate Alison. :p

[Novaya Havoc]

Do you have all of her appearances after she returned from Mojoworld and vanished into obscurity after losing Longshot. Because there are none, she's changed as a person during her time in Mojoworld, and her new look and style are a part of what happened after that. There is no comparison between the two versions of Dazzler currently in comics. The NEX one is certainly not a rebel punk, and certainly nowhere near as hardcore as Ultimate Alison. :p

Okay, look. This is the problem with comic fans. You can either play the "continuity game," where we speculate how a writer can make Wolverine supreme lord of the multiverse one issue, then get killed by Artie the next.

OR we can play the editor game, where we speculate how an editor will push for a character rendition that is popular amongst a mass audience. Scaley Mystique post-X1 would be one way. Punk Dazzler after Ultimate would be another.

If you subscribe to the first school of thought, I have no interest in debating with you. Well, to be honest, I have no interest in talking to you at all about Dazzler, Beast.

[Beast]

Okay, look. This is the problem with comic fans. You can either play the "continuity game," where we speculate how a writer can make Wolverine supreme lord of the multiverse one issue, then get killed by Artie the next.

OR we can play the editor game, where we speculate how an editor will push for a character rendition that is popular amongst a mass audience. Scaley Mystique post-X1 would be one way. Punk Dazzler after Ultimate would be another.

If you subscribe to the first school of thought, I have no interest in debating with you. Well, to be honest, I have no interest in talking to you at all about Dazzler, Beast.
Fine, don't. It just proves that you're unwilling to even consider that your position on Dazzler could be flawed or obscured by your obsession with the character. Thanks for proving my point for me, you're right and everyone else is wrong, even if there is continuity to back up the changes to a character. :)

[Babylon23]

Thanks for the response Novaya. I haven't read a lot of Dazzler solo stuff, so I can't comment on changes there. (Wasn't there a storyline where she became the herald of Galactus? I seem to remember reading that when I was young).

I think CC has written her consistently in X-Men/Excalibur, but I can understand your fraustration if this is different to her portrayal in her solo title.

As for her appearance, I have no problem with it. Musicians change there look regularly to fit in with current trends. Her disco look would be a bit silly these days.

[Cowlander]

Novaya, you do know pink hair doesnt equal punk right. Just look at Club Kids, or ravers or any of the other club sub cultures. Punks werent the only ones to put the ol Kool Aid to their hair.

Her new hair is consistant with the different ways people who club, or rave alot can express themselves. From New Jersey Guido to a tribal motif, its all possible. And hating on a hair color to this degree cant be healthy.

Relax it'll be alright.

[Novaya Havoc]

Novaya, you do know pink hair doesnt equal punk right. Just look at Club Kids, or ravers or any of the other club sub cultures. Punks werent the only ones to put the ol Kool Aid to their hair.

Punk = my blanket term for "alternative." Alternative meaning outside the mainstream. Musical genres cross constantly ("country" for instance is often pop with a southern accent).

It's been discussed ad nauseam that Dazzler's look is not a product of her career choice. I'm all for the girl re-inventing herself. What it is is a lame costume choice. Period. Quite frankly, we can sit and argue "continuity" until the cows come home. The "continuity" established Dazzler as being happily re-invented in a post-trance style (with her old costume). But I am not sticking to that like it's the end-all, be-all to characterization. Why? Because I am not a continuity slave.

Anyhoot... as for the old Dazzler style being dead, here are some images from Madonna's photoshoot in Elle (this month!):
Pics (http://www.madonnalicious.com/images/extra/2006/elle_scans_news.jpg).

And as we know, she is so off the pulse of musical trends. I just find it ironic that they try to make Dazzler more edgy and alternative the same time her old look is, well, being touted by the #1 female pop icon in the history of music (and her next video is supposed to feature... ROLLER DISCO. Come on!). C'est la vie.

And look. People are asking me to talk about/defend Dazzler in context of NEX. I'm perfectly content sitting at the sidelines shouting about Dazzler being the MU's answer to Felicity Huffman until the title is mercifully axed. So don't ask me to engage in a discussion about the character then chastise me for responding to your requests.

[Babylon23]

Sorry Novaya. It was my question that re-ignited this.

[Novaya Havoc]

No, Babs. It's cool. I don't mind discussing Dazz at all. It's just that Beast is always picking fights. Funny how the blind NEX supporters will defend anything Claremont does with the title.

If you want to talk more, IM me on AIM. My s/n is in my profile. :) I won't bite -- promise.

[Babylon23]

No, Babs. It's cool. I don't mind discussing Dazz at all. It's just that Beast is always picking fights. Funny how the blind NEX supporters will defend anything Claremont does with the title.

If you want to talk more, IM me on AIM. My s/n is in my profile. :) I won't bite -- promise.

Cool. Actually, your initial post summed it up nicely. As I said, I haven't read a lot of Dazzler, so I was interested to see the POV of an obvious fan.

Maybe we'll get an Essential Dazzler book at some point, and I can catch up on that series.

[Novaya Havoc]

Maybe we'll get an Essential Dazzler book at some point, and I can catch up on that series.

Essential Dazz would be awesome. But you can pick up most of her series pretty cheap if you're interested. Totally different take on the character.

[Babylon23]

Who were the creative teams on the book?

[Novaya Havoc]

Originally?

DeFalco/Simonsen/Romita Jr. were the creators.

Later it turned to Fingeroth/Springer for the majority of the early run, with help from DeFalco.

It turned sour in the middle of the run (issue 30) with a slight revival for the "movie" graphic novel, done by DeFalco and Springer.

[Babylon23]

Thanks. Romita Jr. and Springer are both excellent artists. I'll see what I can track down.

[DDM]

Wasn't there a storyline where she became the herald of Galactus?

Dazzler was ordered by Galactus to retrieve his rebellious Herald, Terrax the Tamer in Dazzler #10-11; afterwards, he returned Dazzler back to Earth. Dazzler felt used by Galactus since he basically ignored her.

[DDM]

Thanks. Romita Jr. and Springer are both excellent artists. I'll see what I can track down.

Dazzler: The Movie revealed to all the world Alison Blaire is a mutant; as a result, the movie backfired & caused Blaire to go into hiding. Chris Claremont used this aspect of Dazzler's own continuity in Uncanny X-Men when Dazzler was part of Lila Cheney's band. Unfortunately, Blaire was possessed by the psychic Marauder, Malice, to bring the X-Men out & further damage their heroic status.

[Vegetarian Goat]

I've said this before about Ali's hair- it's not the color that bothers me so much as it is the style. It's very "tough" on purpose- like she's trying too hard to be cold and jaded. I mean, Jem had pink hair, and she was truly outrageous. So the color isn't a problem for me.

HOWEVER- her repeated deaths are!! If she ends up "dead" for "good"... well, i'll probably cry into my pudding. And that'll be a sad sight for anyone to see.

[Faded]

I've said this before about Ali's hair- it's not the color that bothers me so much as it is the style. It's very "tough" on purpose- like she's trying too hard to be cold and jaded. I mean, Jem had pink hair, and she was truly outrageous. So the color isn't a problem for me.

Agreed. There are so many ways to make the pink work--her current do isn't one of them IMO.

[jarrod]

And, more to the point, I find this very consistent with his portrayal of other characters that he did not write.

Now, normally, I would not find this a problem. I like it when writers try new things. But CC CONSTANTLY references his own works, even when they're 10+ years old. Yet he rarely -- if ever -- acknowledges the works of others.

The fans deserve better. And CC needs to suck up his own ego and deal with the character's past.
Now your complaints concerning Dazzler may hold some weight (I wouldn't know as I've never read her appearances outside the X-Men) but your portrayal of Claremont as an ego driven writer who only looks to his own stuff is not only unfair, but it's outright wrong. Excalibur (Vol.1) was basically a direct continuation of what Delano/Moore/Davis had been doing with Captain Britian in various UK comics, with some X-Men thrown in on the side. Besty's move into the New Mutants and X-Men perfectly mirrored what the character had evolved into after leaving Claremont's hands originally. More recently, Xtreme reworked it's entire focus around what Morisson was going in New X-Men, setting itself up as a viable ideological counter. Claremont even depcits Emma and Scott as horribly in love following Morisson...

You can accuse Claremont of many things, but not acknowledging the work of other writers certainly isn't one of them. From what you're saying, Dazzler's past sounds more like an isolated incident (though to be fair I do remember strong references to it the UXM annual DDM cited). Care to give us any other examples of "wronged" histories before continuing the crucifixion?

[Neolucifer]

If anything , when not mandated by editors to undo stuff , he's probably the only x writer that follow previous writers plots and paths .

[Daithi]

If anything , when not mandated by editors to undo stuff , he's probably the only x writer that follow previous writers plots and paths .

He referenced "The Draco" for gods sakes!

[Valen]

He referenced "The Draco" for gods sakes!
What is the Draco?

[zonzorp]

What is the Draco?
You're better off not knowing.

[Beast]

What is the Draco?
A very horrible Chuck Austen storyline that basically set up the fact that Nightcrawler's father wasn't really 'Count Wagner' as previously believed, but an ancient mutant who is basically the basis for the biblical 'devil'. In CC's first issue back on Uncanny X-Men, Emma snarked at Kurt that if he didn't watch himself she'd send him back to that dimension his father is from. :)

[X-Men Forever]

Emma snarked at Kurt that if he didn't watch himself she'd send him back to that dimension his father is from. :)

San Francisco Kurt shouted :eek: Please no Emma, anywhere but there.

[Beast]

San Francisco Kurt shouted :eek: Please no Emma, anywhere but there.
You're weird. :)

[X-Men Forever]

You're weird. :)

Have you ever been to San Francisco? It will make you go :eek:

[Novaya Havoc]

I've said this before about Ali's hair- it's not the color that bothers me so much as it is the style. It's very "tough" on purpose- like she's trying too hard to be cold and jaded. I mean, Jem had pink hair, and she was truly outrageous. So the color isn't a problem for me.


Well put, Dan. I agree 100%. Strawberry Blonde and (soft, IMO) pink is a hot combo.

This is not.

[xmanson]

I hope Dazzler finds happiness in the arms of a butch lesbian that looks just like Juggernaut. Ad then stop shaving her armpits and dye them "strawberry blond" or any other gay name for colors people can come up with.

Ryan is a nice artsit and all that, but could he get fired, please?

[Neolucifer]

Who said it was his idea and choice of rendition ?

[Novaya Havoc]

IMO it probably was editorial. Either way, someone on NEX should be lynched.

[fishtaco]

IMO it probably was editorial. Either way, someone on NEX should be lynched.Well, I'm sure it wasn't Claremont's decision, and I dislike Michael Ryan's work as well as the editors, so no complaints here.

[xmanson]

The problem is.. I juts don't see Dazzler in that charcater. The design just keep me away from recognizing her as Dazzler.

I haven't read that much of her to complain about characterization and it seems ok to me by now,but the design is dreadful.

Silvestri's Dazzler is the one carved in my mind, so that pink haired 15 year old with crappy pants just gets a blank in my mind.

[Neolucifer]

I dont think he would have gone from our known version of Dazzler , to such an Extreme Makover without someone guidance/orders . So i'm inclined ot believe its either claremont or an editor . It also sounds like a stupid way to make her looks like her ultimate counterpart.

Mind you i dont dislike it , but frankly i never did care about dazzler neither . I also agree that you dont even remotely recognize her , as she looks like a new character. So i can fairly understand her fans being disguted . Its not as if she had an history like spiderman of getting once everywhile a new silly costume .

[Babylon23]

I have to say, I don't really care either way about Dazzler's new look. I'm more interested to see where CC takes the character, and how she'll interect with her teammates.

The first 3 issues have been about establishing the new team. Once things settle down, we'll get a better feel for where the characters are going.

The pencil art for issue 4 shows Dazzler and Juggernaut interacting , which is cool.

[X-Men Forever]

The person to blame the most for Dazzler's new look is Mike Ryan. He did all the conceptual character sketches for New Excalibur, and all Claremont and the editors had to do was approve them. If Ryan would have drawn dazzler with long blonde hair, then she would have it.

[streator]

The first 3 issues have been about establishing the new team. Once things settle down, we'll get a better feel for where the characters are going.

as far as i've read, they haven't established a team yet. or given a reason the characters will, either. right?

[Hi-Fi]

The person to blame the most for Dazzler's new look is Mike Ryan. He did all the conceptual character sketches for New Excalibur, and all Claremont and the editors had to do was approve them. If Ryan would have drawn dazzler with long blonde hair, then she would have it.

I'm pretty sure that was CC doing. He is known to give details of character's looks when working with an artist. He even says what clothes the characters should wear.

[Neolucifer]

The person to blame the most for Dazzler's new look is Mike Ryan. He did all the conceptual character sketches for New Excalibur, and all Claremont and the editors had to do was approve them. If Ryan would have drawn dazzler with long blonde hair, then she would have it.
And where was it stated ???
I personally dont see an artist like him , with a name , but in no way Lee's or nowadays superstars stature , revamping a character like that for the heck of it .

[X-Men Forever]

And where was it stated ???


Here is a link to Ryan's conceptual sketches from the 2005 Wizard World Philly X-Panel.
www.newsarama.com/wwphilly05/Marvel/XPanel/WWPhilXMen.htm

[Neolucifer]

Yeah but it doesnt seems to indicate if he acted alone , or was ordered to give dazzler a pink punk haircut .

[Babylon23]

as far as i've read, they haven't established a team yet. or given a reason the characters will, either. right?

Not yet. They've brought all the members together, and I believe issue 4 is when they establish the team properly.

It's still quicker than the 12 issues to establish New Avengers lineup.

[streator]

Not yet. They've brought all the members together, and I believe issue 4 is when they establish the team properly.
okay. i haven't physically read issue 2 or 3 yet, thanks for the clarification.

[xmanson]

The design would definetly work better with someone that was able to draw women properly - she looks like a teenager, making it even more wierd.

[Mr. Jip]

Ali looks like BOOM BOOM.



i find Claremont's Outback-era Dazzler to be a DEFINITIVE version of her.
She GREW UP then.

Nowadays... since she has been in Limbo forever, you can really take her anywhere. She was fighting a WAR in the Mojoverse. Of course she's all tough & jaded.

i'd LOVE Ali to return to her disco-fabulous roots & have soft blonde Farrah curls & bootylicious Kylie costumes, but sadly, Marvel has no fashion sense.
Poo.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

I'm pretty sure that was CC doing. He is known to give details of character's looks when working with an artist. He even says what clothes the characters should wear.

Not really.

With Excalibur Genosha he was flamed for the design of the character Wicked, which he had no say in or over, since the design from the pages Kordey had produced was radically different from what Lopriesti produced.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Not really.

With Excalibur Genosha he was flamed for the design of the character Wicked, which he had no say in or over, since the design from the pages Kordey had produced was radically different from what Lopriesti produced.

In all fairness pretty much, none of Excalibur: Genosha turned out the way Chris had envisaged - from the second he lost his artist of choice, before the series began.

If it had turned out as intended this bleak War-torn book would have had a lot more bite to it. as it turned out, the artwork didn't do it justice, and the vasty majority of people saw using the "Excalibur" as misleading and ill-picked. :(

[DDM]

Not really.

With Excalibur Genosha he was flamed for the design of the character Wicked, which he had no say in or over, since the design from the pages Kordey had produced was radically different from what Lopriesti produced.

Excalibur (Genosha) seems to be an editorial flaw more than the writer. Chris Claremont lost his artist & did not learn he had a new one until much later. House of M took a big chunk of Claremont's book away completely; therefore, making it irrevelent. Excalibur's failure is a result of bad timing & planning from Marvel's editors.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Excalibur (Genosha) seems to be an editorial flaw more than the writer. Chris Claremont lost his artist & did not learn he had a new one until much later. House of M took a big chunk of Claremont's book away completely; therefore, making it irrevelent. Excalibur's failure is a result of bad timing & planning from Marvel's editors.

Exactly. Does anybody know where you can find some examples of Kordey's original Excalibur designs, online?

[Novaya Havoc]

Now your complaints concerning Dazzler may hold some weight (I wouldn't know as I've never read her appearances outside the X-Men) but your portrayal of Claremont as an ego driven writer who only looks to his own stuff is not only unfair, but it's outright wrong.

Two words: Marie D'Ancanto.

[Hi-Fi]

Excalibur (Genosha) seems to be an editorial flaw more than the writer. Chris Claremont lost his artist & did not learn he had a new one until much later. House of M took a big chunk of Claremont's book away completely; therefore, making it irrevelent. Excalibur's failure is a result of bad timing & planning from Marvel's editors.

That's right. It's always the editors fault. Except with X-Men and Antonishing. In those cases it's Milligan and Whedon faults. :rolleyes:

[Faded]

That's right. It's always the editors fault. Except with X-Men and Antonishing. In those cases it's Milligan and Whedon faults. :rolleyes:

Darn those editors!

At least we can thank them for End of Grey's being so good though. Because, ya know, that was their fault too.

[Hi-Fi]

Darn those editors!

At least we can thank them for End of Grey's being so good though. Because, ya know, that was their fault too.


That's right!


:D

[DDM]

That's right. It's always the editors fault. Except with X-Men and Antonishing. In those cases it's Milligan and Whedon faults. :rolleyes:

It's clear to me Excalibur failed as a result of poor planning from the editors. The editors have more power than the writer. The editors schedule everything & create a timeline proper. Given the events of House of M, the editors were not talking to one another very well. Otherwise, Excalibur would have been a very different book or not published at all.

[xmanson]

Two words: Marie D'Ancanto.

An original charcater with a name used in the movie... hmmm... that bastard.

[xmanson]

Excalibur (Genosha) seems to be an editorial flaw more than the writer. Chris Claremont lost his artist & did not learn he had a new one until much later. House of M took a big chunk of Claremont's book away completely; therefore, making it irrevelent. Excalibur's failure is a result of bad timing & planning from Marvel's editors.


Not to mention he was stuck with Magneto and Wanda for several issues, where he could do nothing with them becuase they were just there for House of M, all we got was wanda sleeping and Magneto talking to her.

I don't blame everything on the editors (the clunky dialogue is from Claremont, for instance) but Exclaibur was a good example of a book ruined by editorial policy. And I wouldn't mind if the outcome was really interesting, but House of M was pure garbage.


Well, the cripple and the truck, oh, the horror. (that was just adtional bitching, a little unrelated).

[LoneWolf21]

Well, the cripple and the truck, oh, the horror. (that was just adtional bitching, a little unrelated).

Eh, just say the truck was Optimus Prime.

No wait, doesn't work. Id the truck had been Prime, Danger wouldn't have lasted as long as it did.

[Novaya Havoc]

An original charcater with a name used in the movie... hmmm... that bastard.

No -- more the movie finally went around to naming Rogue considering no one had in comics, so CC had to supplant it by creating a bootleg character of the same name.

He didn't give Rogue that name; thus, he ensured it wouldn't be her name.

[xmanson]

No -- more the movie finally went around to naming Rogue considering no one had in comics, so CC had to supplant it by creating a bootleg character of the same name.

He didn't give Rogue that name; thus, he ensured it wouldn't be her name.


The movie is not canon, nor the cartoon or anything else on the stands that not the comics themselves. I don't mind that name for Rogue, but see no problem if any other author chose to do it differently.

[Novaya Havoc]

The movie is not canon, nor the cartoon or anything else on the stands that not the comics themselves. I don't mind that name for Rogue, but see no problem if any other author chose to do it differently.

I don't mind, either. Name Rogue whatever you want.

But, personally, when I saw Claremont introduce a "Marie D'Ancanto," I saw it as a deliberate slap to those who would do something out of step with his vision of the character. "You want to name Rogue 'Marie?' Well here's your Marie!"
Someone argued CC is very concilatory toward others' ideas of the characters. I just gave an example of the opposite.

[Dark Phoenix]

Didn't CC create Dazzler back in UXM #130? Doesn't that kind of give him some say in how sh'e written? Couldn't it be said that the other writers messed with CC's original vision for her and all he did was get her back on track when he brought her into the X-Men?

[Novaya Havoc]

Didn't CC create Dazzler back in UXM #130? Doesn't that kind of give him some say in how sh'e written? Couldn't it be said that the other writers messed with CC's original vision for her and all he did was get her back on track when he brought her into the X-Men?

No. Read This. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzler#Creation_misconception)

He had nothing to do with her whatsoever.

[Beast]

I don't mind, either. Name Rogue whatever you want.

But, personally, when I saw Claremont introduce a "Marie D'Ancanto," I saw it as a deliberate slap to those who would do something out of step with his vision of the character. "You want to name Rogue 'Marie?' Well here's your Marie!"
Someone argued CC is very concilatory toward others' ideas of the characters. I just gave an example of the opposite.
Of course that's only your theory, because there's no proof that he introduced a 'Marie' to stop Rogue from being named Marie. And Rogue has since been named Anna-Marie and taken the last name of Raven. :)

[Dark Phoenix]

No. Read This. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzler#Creation_misconception)

He had nothing to do with her whatsoever.

Well, writing her first appearance, if not actually creating her, kind of counts for something. I have a feeling if it weren't for the X-Men connection, Dazzler would be nothing today but a memory of a short lived series.

And please don't think I don't like her, because I do. I'm glad she's back in any way, shape, form or hair color.

[Novaya Havoc]

Well, writing her first appearance, if not actually creating her, kind of counts for something.

No. It really doesn't. You know those forced, editorial decisions Claremont fans so despise? Dazzler was one of them. She was smacked right into the middle of the Dark Phoenix Saga, just like she was smacked into Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four the next month (same month as UXM 131).

CC and Byrne had nothing to do with her. Period.

[Babylon23]

I don't mind, either. Name Rogue whatever you want.

But, personally, when I saw Claremont introduce a "Marie D'Ancanto," I saw it as a deliberate slap to those who would do something out of step with his vision of the character. "You want to name Rogue 'Marie?' Well here's your Marie!"
Someone argued CC is very concilatory toward others' ideas of the characters. I just gave an example of the opposite.

Well, this is certainly an example of what you were referring to, but I think most of us were talking about CC incorporating the ideas of his fellow X-writers. He certainly ran with a lot of Morrison's ideas during New X-Men, and was more concillatory towards Morrison's and Austen's work than they were towards his.

CC often tries to create a sense of continuity between the x-books. The early scenes in the recent Mojo issue illustrate this.

[jarrod]

ISomeone argued CC is very concilatory toward others' ideas of the characters. I just gave an example of the opposite.
Er... you argued that Claremont looks only inward to his own stories and tends to outright ignore others work done on these characters previously or in his absence. This example hardly mirrors that, it's not even the same character... really, Dazzler's backstory is all you've brought to the table. I'd argue it's more likely that when the work is worthy of referencing Claremont usually does so. That's probably why Alan Moore's Captain Britian and Grant Morisson's New X-Men make the cut while Tom Defalco's Dazzler doesn't. ;)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Er... you argued that Claremont looks only inward to his own stories and tends to outright ignore others work done on these characters previously or in his absence. This example hardly mirrors that, it's not even the same character... really, Dazzler's backstory is all you've brought to the table. I'd argue it's more likely that when the work is worthy of referencing Claremont usually does so. That's probably why Alan Moore's Captain Britian and Grant Morisson's New X-Men make the cut while Tom Defalco's Dazzler doesn't. ;)

I'd agree. In the case of Captain Britain, well, Claremont may have created him, but THAT Captain Britain was totally different to the one we know now. Much less stocky and his power was held in his staff. The Captain Britain that Claremont wrote, and still writes to this day, in Excalibur is what Alan Moore and Alan Davis turned him into, with their runs working on the character. The majority of what we know of the whole Captain Britain story, and his realtionships with Betsy, Meggan, the Braddock estate, otherworld and more, were nothing to do with Claremont. But he respected them enough to keep them, as he felt they were well developed ideas.

From a creative point of view Claremont knows what works, arguably better sometimes than he can write it :rolleyes: , but from an editorial point of view he judgement is usually sound...

[Novaya Havoc]

I'd argue it's more likely that when the work is worthy of referencing Claremont usually does so. That's probably why Alan Moore's Captain Britian and Grant Morisson's New X-Men make the cut while Tom Defalco's Dazzler doesn't. ;)

Ooh... snarky snarky, are we?

1. CC worked on Captain Britain. He liked Captain Britain. He had a good relationship with that work. That is the exception, not the rule.

2. Morrison and all of the NEW writers reflect his new environment. Yes, he is more concilatory now -- he does not hold a writing monopoly on the X-Men. Secondly, the editors expect him to concede -- and rightly so. His work is sub-par and uninspired, so why give him the most wiggle room of the big X-Writers? ;)

His old stuff he is very possessive about. And yes, he did outright neglect characters like Firestar, Dazzler, Longshot, and others in the 80s, whose backstories did not coincide with his own goals for the character. Snark all you want by calling it "unworthy," but his acceptance of Captain Britain does not mean that CC felt it "worthy" to reference; rather, he liked it. Ego. I like = worthy.

So if that's what you mean by worthiness, power to you. If not, I stand by my assessment.

[fishtaco]

Ooh... snarky snarky, are we?

1. CC worked on Captain Britain. He liked Captain Britain. He had a good relationship with that work. That is the exception, not the rule.

2. Morrison and all of the NEW writers reflect his new environment. Yes, he is more concilatory now -- he does not hold a writing monopoly on the X-Men. Secondly, the editors expect him to concede -- and rightly so. His work is sub-par and uninspired, so why give him the most wiggle room of the big X-Writers? ;)

His old stuff he is very possessive about. And yes, he did outright neglect characters like Firestar, Dazzler, Longshot, and others in the 80s, whose backstories did not coincide with his own goals for the character. Snark all you want by calling it "unworthy," but his acceptance of Captain Britain does not mean that CC felt it "worthy" to reference; rather, he liked it. Ego. I like = worthy.

So if that's what you mean by worthiness, power to you. If not, I stand by my assessment.I still don't understand. I know you have a lot of passion for the character, so can you rid me of my ignorance and explain to me how Chris Claremont butchered Dazzler? I don't think he butchered Longshot, nor did he butcher Firestar. He wrote Firestar for one issue, and I thought she was fine. How did he neglect Longshot, and especially Dazzler?

[Novaya Havoc]

I still don't understand. I know you have a lot of passion for the character, so can you rid me of my ignorance and explain to me how Chris Claremont butchered Dazzler? I don't think he butchered Longshot, nor did he butcher Firestar. He wrote Firestar for one issue, and I thought she was fine. How did he neglect Longshot, and especially Dazzler?

Read Dazzler. Read Longshot. Compare.

I'm not going to detail it. Claremont fanboys like yourself won't be swayed, anyhow. CC wrote a piss-poor Dazzler after, oh, issue 224.

[fishtaco]

Read Dazzler. Read Longshot. Compare.

I'm not going to detail it. Claremont fanboys like yourself won't be swayed, anyhow. CC wrote a piss-poor Dazzler after, oh, issue 224.Can't you just tell me why you didn't like his characterization? And I can be swayed. I don't support every single thing Claremont does. Almost everything, but there are things he has done in the X-universe that I have not liked. I'm open to the basis for a different opinion, so why don't you share it?

[Hi-Fi]

I'm open to the basis for a different opinion, so why don't you share it?


Joke of the week.

[Novaya Havoc]

Can't you just tell me why you didn't like his characterization? And I can be swayed. I don't support every single thing Claremont does. Almost everything, but there are things he has done in the X-universe that I have not liked. I'm open to the basis for a different opinion, so why don't you share it?

I told you. Read Dazzler. Her series > Claremont's characterization, and by Inferno he gives her a character 180.

And -- whodathunkit -- he spins her into another dimension (har har) with New Excalibur.

I'm not going to sit and type it all out. If you're interested, buy the Dazzler series. Its first half is fabulous.

-B

[fishtaco]

Joke of the week.Not funnyI told you. Read Dazzler. Her series > Claremont's characterization, and by Inferno he gives her a character 180.

And -- whodathunkit -- he spins her into another dimension (har har) with New Excalibur.

I'm not going to sit and type it all out. If you're interested, buy the Dazzler series.Well, it appears that you don't have much of a case. I'm willing to hear it, because you aren't the first fan to say that Claremont doesn't write a good Dazzler, but if you don't feel like making a convincing statement, then I can't really take you seriously. I'll get to Dazzler eventually. I've read a few issues, but not enough to judge. I'd rather complete other parts of my X-collection first. So if you don't like the way Dazzler is written by Claremont, then share it. Otherwise, stop bitching about it. Its first half is fabulous.I believe you. What about the second half? Claremont didn't write it, did he?

[The Mirrorball Man]

I'm not going to sit and type it all out. If you're interested, buy the Dazzler series. Its first half is fabulous.
It was only "fabulous" in the same way that "Jem and the Holograms" was "truy outrageous".

[Novaya Havoc]

So if you don't like the way Dazzler is written by Claremont, then share it. Otherwise, stop bitching about it.

1. Honey, it's called the "search function." Search for Dazzler. Or search for posts by "Novaya Havoc." I've talked about this a million times before, and convincing you is very loooow on my priorities. But since you are so freaking adamant:

2a. Claremont's X-Men spoke about issues in metaphor. Constant, pervasive, quasi-glorious metaphor.
2b. DeFalco and Fingeroth's Dazzler broke social issues down to a personal level. Mutant was still a metaphor, but they humanized the issue and made it approachable (for the early 80s, mind you).

3a. DeFalco/Fingeroth's Dazzler was a college-educated, middle-aged woman with relationship and family issues, and a lot of conflicting emotions. Yet she was stable, mature, resourceful, and level-headed.
3b. Claremont's Dazzler was spunky and naive, seemed younger than the others, and was almost incapacitated by any form of personal conflict. She was materialistic, vain, whiny, and irritable toward the end of the run.

4a. DeFalco/Fingeroth had creative, resourceful uses of Dazzler's powers.
4b. Claremont had her pull the same old (ineffective) tricks time and time again.

5. Claremont never touched Dazzler, nor did he ever make any effort to address what was going on in her title with X-Men (namely, the movie graphic novel fiasco). His lack of cooperation -- cooperation he exercised with New Mutants and X-Factor -- effectively suffocated the title (although it was far from the only issue plaguing the series). The one bit he did reference was "Beauty and the Beast" in New Mutants; however, this was written by Ann Nocenti, with whom he had a good working relationship. It is the exception.

And lastly:
The current direction of superheroes and comics in general is to re-market and introduce them with more human, personal, dramatic elements. Metaphors are still present, but not as prohibitive as they were in the "silver age." They are more real. Visceral. Ironically, Dazzler tread these waters in her solo series looong beforehand, and is largely obscured. With the right creative team and PR, her title could re-launch and be a good read.

Now I'm expecting a point-by-point where you defend Claremont's rendition. Whatever. For the last time: I am not addressing it again. Since you're often such a relativist in your arguments about comics, go look up the series, read it, and "come to your own conclusion." I've done my homework: go do yours.

-B

[Hi-Fi]

Just to conclude Novaya's point, Dazzler has now ugly short pink hair.


Oh, and i like Dazzler in the Outback days.

[bfrank]

It was only "fabulous" in the same way that "Jem and the Holograms" was "truy outrageous".
LOL...I tried Dazzler when I was a kid....boring....

I tried it a few weeks ago.....boring....

[Neolucifer]

I tried it not so long ago , wasnt bad at all ...i was expecting far worse .

[fishtaco]

1. Honey, it's called the "search function." Search for Dazzler. Or search for posts by "Novaya Havoc." I've talked about this a million times before, and convincing you is very loooow on my priorities. But since you are so freaking adamant:

2a. Claremont's X-Men spoke about issues in metaphor. Constant, pervasive, quasi-glorious metaphor.
2b. DeFalco and Fingeroth's Dazzler broke social issues down to a personal level. Mutant was still a metaphor, but they humanized the issue and made it approachable (for the early 80s, mind you).

3a. DeFalco/Fingeroth's Dazzler was a college-educated, middle-aged woman with relationship and family issues, and a lot of conflicting emotions. Yet she was stable, mature, resourceful, and level-headed.
3b. Claremont's Dazzler was spunky and naive, seemed younger than the others, and was almost incapacitated by any form of personal conflict. She was materialistic, vain, whiny, and irritable toward the end of the run.

4a. DeFalco/Fingeroth had creative, resourceful uses of Dazzler's powers.
4b. Claremont had her pull the same old (ineffective) tricks time and time again.

5. Claremont never touched Dazzler, nor did he ever make any effort to address what was going on in her title with X-Men (namely, the movie graphic novel fiasco). His lack of cooperation -- cooperation he exercised with New Mutants and X-Factor -- effectively suffocated the title (although it was far from the only issue plaguing the series). The one bit he did reference was "Beauty and the Beast" in New Mutants; however, this was written by Ann Nocenti, with whom he had a good working relationship. It is the exception.

And lastly:
The current direction of superheroes and comics in general is to re-market and introduce them with more human, personal, dramatic elements. Metaphors are still present, but not as prohibitive as they were in the "silver age." They are more real. Visceral. Ironically, Dazzler tread these waters in her solo series looong beforehand, and is largely obscured. With the right creative team and PR, her title could re-launch and be a good read.

Now I'm expecting a point-by-point where you defend Claremont's rendition. Whatever. For the last time: I am not addressing it again. Since you're often such a relativist in your arguments about comics, go look up the series, read it, and "come to your own conclusion." I've done my homework: go do yours.

-BThanks for notifying me. You have a very convincing argument, and I agree with your interpretations on how Claremont chose to write her in Uncanny X-Men. I have already noticed quite well that Claremont isn't very creative with Dazzler's powers. It's always photons and lasers. I've read Dazzler's spotlight at UXN, and they cited examples of Dazzler being more creative with her powers. I'll take your word for how DeFalso wrote her in her own series as more educated and intelligent. So yeah, there's me being a relativist in my arguments, right? Thanks for giving me more information than I already have. My opinion has to a point been changed.

I feel like Claremont is writing Nocturne the same way. She seems little and weak. I didn't start picking up Exiles trades until after NEX came out. I'm still going to wait and see for how it all turns out.

oh, and don't blame Mr. Claremont for Dazz's pink hair. Blame Michael Ryan, whom I also happen to dislike.

[Novaya Havoc]

oh, and don't blame Mr. Claremont for Dazz's pink hair. Blame Michael Ryan, whom I also happen to dislike.

CC has "butched out" pretty much EVERY female under his pen. Why, then, should I believe it was solely an artistic decision, and had nothing to do with him?

[Neolucifer]

I still have issues believing that Ryan was responsible for the pink hair and complete redesign ..
Without a writer or editor's decision behind it it seems far too gratuitous and random . Imo its either CC or an Editor .

[Babylon23]

No offense to any of the Dazzler fans (I know exactly what it's like to have your favourite character butchered by a writer, I'm still reeling from Disassembled), but I don't see Dazzler as being all that butch. Yes, she's cut her hair short and dyed it pink, but I don't think she looks like a man.

I can see your points with the change in character, however. I haven't really read Dazzler before, so I never noticed the change in personality from her series to the x-appearances.

I agree that her new costume has to go. However, I don't think a return to the disco suit is a good idea. I always liked the blue and ellow costume myself.

[DDM]

Thanks for notifying me. You have a very convincing argument, and I agree with your interpretations on how Claremont chose to write her in Uncanny X-Men. I have already noticed quite well that Claremont isn't very creative with Dazzler's powers. It's always photons and lasers. I've read Dazzler's spotlight at UXN, and they cited examples of Dazzler being more creative with her powers. I'll take your word for how DeFalso wrote her in her own series as more educated and intelligent. So yeah, there's me being a relativist in my arguments, right? Thanks for giving me more information than I already have. My opinion has to a point been changed.

I feel like Claremont is writing Nocturne the same way. She seems little and weak. I didn't start picking up Exiles trades until after NEX came out. I'm still going to wait and see for how it all turns out.

oh, and don't blame Mr. Claremont for Dazz's pink hair. Blame Michael Ryan, whom I also happen to dislike.


In the latter issues of Dazzler #38-40, Alison receives more training directly from the X-Men; they also give her a new costume to help her better control her powers.

Dazzler controls her powers to a great degree, but she has never tapped into her full potential. Why? Her powers are secondary to Alison's true ambitions to be a successful musician & actress. Alison's powers always got in the way of her success.

I think Claremont understands Dazzler's character very well. He's one of the few writers who does at this point without turning Dazzler into a parody.

[Neolucifer]

I feel like Claremont is writing Nocturne the same way. She seems little and weak. I didn't start picking up Exiles trades until after NEX came out. I'm still going to wait and see for how it all turns out.

I havent felt neither that Nocturne had been even remotely she strong character she used to be in Exiles . IF anything she seems more like a lost and weak teenage girl than the strong exiles member and leader material , previously engaged in a quite serious relationship with Thunderbird , and even at some time pregant with his baby .

[Novaya Havoc]

In the latter issues of Dazzler #38-40, Alison receives more training directly from the X-Men; they also give her a new costume to help her better control her powers.

Dazzler controls her powers to a great degree, but she has never tapped into her full potential. Why? Her powers are secondary to Alison's true ambitions to be a successful musician & actress. Alison's powers always got in the way of her success.

I think Claremont understands Dazzler's character very well. He's one of the few writers who does at this point without turning Dazzler into a parody.

DDM, Dazzler was NEVER a parody. She was turned into a parody by the (mostly male) fandom that dismissed her for the costume. And the only people who continue to say Dazzler was a parody are people who dismiss the series (again, mostly alpha-males).

Who parodied her? Not Gail Simone. Not Lobdell (who brought her back). Not Bendis in HOM. And there have been other writers who wanted to do Dazzler series and mini series relaunches, but were laughed out by editors who by-and-large subscribe to the "parody status" the readership imagines of the character.

CLAREMONT is the one writer who makes the character more of a parody than any of the others who handled her! Come on!

Her trials in her own series fleshed her out as a far more well-rounded, conflicted, and whole person than CC did, who gave her "shades of emotion": naive, insecure, arrogant (for the most part). When he wanted a rookie? Dazzler. When he wanted a fashionista? Dazzler. Parody, parody, parody.

The few genuine character moments he gave her were coined lock-and-step from either Dazzler itself (without actually referencing it), or from her "Beauty and the Beast" by Nocenti (which he used to better effect in New Mutants).

Bendis, PAD -- heck, even Milligan or MORRISON (whom I loathe to no end) would probably make her less a parody than Claremont.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I havent felt neither that Nocturne had been even remotely she strong character she used to be in Exiles . IF anything she seems more like a lost and weak teenage girl than the strong exiles member and leader material , previously engaged in a quite serious relationship with Thunderbird , and even at some time pregant with his baby .

I do agree with you there. I haven't read anything of Nocturne between her leaving Exiles and appearing in House of M. I'm interested to see how she'll develope, but sahe certainly seems to have become pretty... wet. It's doesn't ring correctly in my mind.

Did something weird happen to her in between these two points, that I'm unaware of?

[Neolucifer]

Thats what i cant really understand . Sure she was also shown in Austen's book , with the whole brotherhood story .. but how do you get from that :

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/hyperion2000/Bios/Nocturne.JPG

To her current kiddy self ? Wich is another reason why i'm not buying the its Ryan's fault for the redesign ...
It has gone way beyond her look .

Now we got a younger Nocturne that was running from the House of Magnus for a reason not yet revealed , and remaining in that new look despite HoM ending .

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Now we got a younger Nocturne that was running from the House of Magnus for a reason not yet revealed , and remaining in that new look despite HoM ending .

Well, it was hardly an 'unknown' reason. Her mother was her dimension's Wanda Maximoff. The House of M couldn't understand how this could have come to be.

I'd like to know more as to why she now is as she is.

[DDM]

DDM, Dazzler was NEVER a parody. She was turned into a parody by the (mostly male) fandom that dismissed her for the costume. And the only people who continue to say Dazzler was a parody are people who dismiss the series (again, mostly alpha-males).

Who parodied her? Not Gail Simone. Not Lobdell (who brought her back). Not Bendis in HOM. And there have been other writers who wanted to do Dazzler series and mini series relaunches, but were laughed out by editors who by-and-large subscribe to the "parody status" the readership imagines of the character.

CLAREMONT is the one writer who makes the character more of a parody than any of the others who handled her! Come on!

Her trials in her own series fleshed her out as a far more well-rounded, conflicted, and whole person than CC did, who gave her "shades of emotion": naive, insecure, arrogant (for the most part). When he wanted a rookie? Dazzler. When he wanted a fashionista? Dazzler. Parody, parody, parody.

The few genuine character moments he gave her were coined lock-and-step from either Dazzler itself (without actually referencing it), or from her "Beauty and the Beast" by Nocenti (which he used to better effect in New Mutants).

Bendis, PAD -- heck, even Milligan or MORRISON (whom I loathe to no end) would probably make her less a parody than Claremont.


Marvel did release a Dazzler parody story of Behind the Music in X-Men Unlimited a few years ago.

Personally, I prefer Claremont's characterization of the reluctant hero from Uncanny X-Men.

Dazzler is used to being pampered when she did release a few records & got into acting. She is used to being the primadonna. Therefore, her behavior in Uncanny X-Men was correct. She hated Rogue. She hated being in the X-Men. Yet the team was really her only source for survival at the time since her music & acting careers were in the toilet.

[Neolucifer]

Well, it was hardly an 'unknown' reason. Her mother was her dimension's Wanda Maximoff. The House of M couldn't understand how this could have come to be.

Actually it is . I understand that with HoM plenty of events and heroes team we know didnt occurs .. but it hardly set them back in the Stone Age . I dont believe that the people from HoM wouldnt know about other dimensions with different versions of themselves .

I could see the House of Magnus hiding Talia , if she were something shameful like a human girl , or the daughter of a Nighcrawler that would be a foe of Magnus in HoM , but its nothing like that .. she is a mutant something actually revered there , even with her being someone unknown to the House , she shouldnt be that harshly hunted...
So unless it leads to a plot , hopefully explaining her look , i find it pretty pointless .

[bfrank]

didn't wanda's mojo cause the dimensions to start folding in on themselves....isn't that why roma was going to blow up 616....I think there's reason to assume that the "house of m" verse, like the "AOA" verse before it, had no knowledge of other dimensions/realities.....

[Neolucifer]

I see now thats an explanation that would work , about the surprise of the HoM people .

[Novaya Havoc]

Marvel did release a Dazzler parody story of Behind the Music in X-Men Unlimited a few years ago.

Dazzler is used to being pampered when she did release a few records & got into acting. She is used to being the primadonna. Therefore, her behavior in Uncanny X-Men was correct. She hated Rogue. She hated being in the X-Men. Yet the team was really her only source for survival at the time since her music & acting careers were in the toilet.

No, DDM. Don't play a Dazzler continuity/reference war with me. You'll lose.

X-Men Unlimited: How was that a PARODY?! It was a tribute to/recap of the character. Vibrant and colorful with a tongue-in-cheek verneer, but it was not indended as a parody/joke.

Link: Author Will Pfeifer ON THAT STORY (http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/features/98780284721749.htm)
(and the image of Dazz from the FF is from my old web site -- you can see the watermark logo in the bottom right)

Dazzler was never a pampered primadonna. She let it get to her in Dazzler: The Movie, but it was rectified in that same graphic novel and she "redeemed" herself. Throughout her series she was humble and far from selfish.

And after Claremont's sapphic rendition of Dazzler/TJ in NEX 4, I don't think it's ever possible for me to say one good thing about the way he writes her.

[Hi-Fi]

No, DDM. Don't play a Dazzler continuity/reference war with me. You'll lose.



My new sig, ok? :D

oh, and if DDM's ok with it too, of course. :)

[Novaya Havoc]

My new sig, ok? :D

<lol> I love you, Hi-Fi.

[Neolucifer]

Why is CC even getting nocturne anyway ? He hasnt done anything with her so far , and it only looks like Marvel is further and constantly avoiding having her and Nightcrawler in the same room ...
I'm sure that at some point CC will use her , but i'm not sure it will be in , any way , pleasing me, and i'm not seeing why she was removed from the exiles , so far ...
She hasnt done many interesting things so far in Xmen , uncanny and NEX ...

[Novaya Havoc]

Why is CC even getting nocturne anyway ? He hasnt done anything with her so far , and it only looks like Marvel is further and constantly avoiding having her and Nightcrawler in the same room ...
I'm sure that at some point CC will use her , but i'm not sure it will be in , any way , pleasing me, and i'm not seeing why she was removed from the exiles , so far ...
She hasnt done many interesting things so far in Xmen , uncanny and NEX ...

They interact in NEX4.

CC said Nocturne is on this book because "Nightcrawler was a key part of the original team." Therefore: Nocturne looks like Nightcrawler. Hello, Nocturne.

[Beast]

Plus Austen's plans to use her fell through, since he was removed from X-Men. So it was either continued limbo for Nocturne, or she'd appear just to be killed off. I don't see a major difference between her Exiles characterization and her Excalibur characterization. Just different aspects of the same character showing through. :)

[Babylon23]

I just assumed that Claremont got all of these characters because no one else wanted them for their books. He doesn't have the power to pick and choose his team the way a writer like Joss Whedon does.

Other than Sage and maybe Captain Britain, I don't see this team as one Claremont would have chosen for himself. With no real reason for these specific characters to band together, this looks like a team of leftovers (no offense to any of the characters or their fans).

[Neolucifer]

I don't see a major difference between her Exiles characterization and her Excalibur characterization.
As an old fan from her Exiles era , she just seems so far like a neglected character in NEX . I mean , i may sounds a bit eager and impatient , but its not as if she was sage or any of his other favorites . Also i couldnt really feel like she was the same character .

So it was either continued limbo for Nocturne, or she'd appear just to be killed off

Or she could have stayed in Exiles , or could be sent back there . She was kidnapped to feature in 616 xbooks , and instead got a quite minor role in the x books , then get shipped to england with Captain Britain , while she sure could use some interraction with the characters she knows or could relate to .. like Wanda (hardly possible , i understand , given her current wackiness) , Nightcrawler or even Havok and the members she met before in Exiles .

[The Sword Is Drawn]

didn't wanda's mojo cause the dimensions to start folding in on themselves....isn't that why roma was going to blow up 616....I think there's reason to assume that the "house of m" verse, like the "AOA" verse before it, had no knowledge of other dimensions/realities.....

Exactley. Nobody on 616, during House of M, had any knowledge of alternate dimensions, and back story. The House of Magnus wanted her hunted down, because her genetic structure resembled that of the Scarlet Witch. She was a strange abboration that was not allowed to go wandering off, until they had caught her and worked out just how she came to be - most likely in a pulling her apart kind of way... :confused:

I'm sure Claremont does have plans for her, more than just "Can't have Nightcrawler, I'll have his kid..." but right now she doesn't seem anywhere near as sassy, independent, or confident as shje was throughout her Exiles tenure. I hope that will change.

I would also like to see her meet up with the real 616 Scarlet Witch, in a future story. That would be interesting. Seeing how central the future NEX team were to Uncanny's House of M run I think it would make perfect sense for them to go off and search for Wanda at some point in the coming year.

[Neolucifer]

I would also like to see her meet up with the real 616 Scarlet Witch, in a future story. That would be interesting. Seeing how central the future NEX team were to Uncanny's House of M run I think it would make perfect sense for them to go off and search for Wanda at some point in the coming year.

Yeah and thats pretty much why i'm not liking the idea of having her far away in England , with strangers i'm sure will be great friends to her , but wich arent the people , i actually would like her to interract with . I hope your scenario happens , and that she will get tougher again .

[Babylon23]

You know, consistency of characterisation isn't high on Marvel's priorities at the moment. Look at some examples:

Captain America in New Avengers: Once upon a time, Cap would take charge of any situation, no matter how desperate. Now, he seems to spend a lot of time standing around (or crying in Disassembled).

Next Wave: Both Machine Man and Photon are completely out of character, so much so that they might as well be completely different characters with similar names.

Scarlet Witch: Don't even get me started on this one.

Kitty Pryde: Kitty is a very different character in Astonishing to the one whose been in the X-Men for decades.

Spider-Woman: Bendis Spider-Woman seems to spend most of her time posing for men to ogle her. This is very different from her depiction in the original Spider-Woman series.

I guess we can add Dazzler and Nocturne to the list as well.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

You know, consistency of characterisation isn't high on Marvel's priorities at the moment. Look at some examples:

Captain America in New Avengers: Once upon a time, Cap would take charge of any situation, no matter how desperate. Now, he seems to spend a lot of time standing around (or crying in Disassembled).

Next Wave: Both Machine Man and Photon are completely out of character, so much so that they might as well be completely different characters with similar names.

Scarlet Witch: Don't even get me started on this one.

Kitty Pryde: Kitty is a very different character in Astonishing to the one whose been in the X-Men for decades.

Spider-Woman: Bendis Spider-Woman seems to spend most of her time posing for men to ogle her. This is very different from her depiction in the original Spider-Woman series.

I guess we can add Dazzler and Nocturne to the list as well.

Agree with you on a number of those.

Except Next Wave, That's supposed to be tongue in cheek, and debateably not canon. It is bloody funny tho... :D

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Yeah and thats pretty much why i'm not liking the idea of having her far away in England , with strangers i'm sure will be great friends to her , but wich arent the people , i actually would like her to interract with . I hope your scenario happens , and that she will get tougher again .

Well, Wanda is European, and at last glimse in the House of M series appeared to be in some central European twee mountain town. Whilst Excalibur is a British centralised team the original Excalibur team had plenty dealings in central Europe (Ususally Nightcrawler related admittedly) and they're sure as hell a lot closer to her likely location than the New Avengers, who lets be fair have plenty other things on the hands over the coming months.

I want to see this happen.

[Beast]

Well, Wanda is European, and at last glimse in the House of M series appeared to be in some central European twee mountain town. Whilst Excalibur is a British centralised team the original Excalibur team had plenty dealings in central Europe (Ususally Nightcrawler related admittedly) and they're sure as hell a lot closer to her likely location than the New Avengers, who lets be fair have plenty other things on the hands over the coming months.

I want to see this happen.
That was Mt. Wundagore. :)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

That was Mt. Wundagore. :)

Well that's what I'm assuming, although it wasn't actually stated. I'm sure that is what we were supposed to be thinking.

Although that does seem a bit obvious a hiding place.

[Beast]

Well that's what I'm assuming, although it wasn't actually stated. I'm sure that is what we were supposed to be thinking.

Although that does seem a bit obvious a hiding place.
Yeah, but it matches up to the designs of the mountain from Excalibur #14. Plus if I remember correctly, Bendis said somewhere that that is where it was supposed to be. :)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Yeah, but it matches up to the designs of the mountain from Excalibur #14. Plus if I remember correctly, Bendis said somewhere that that is where it was supposed to be. :)

Would Claremont be allowed to do this story though, or is Wanda off-limits for a long long time...? :rolleyes:

[Beast]

Would Claremont be allowed to do this story though, or is Wanda off-limits for a long long time...? :rolleyes:
Who knows. I'm betting she's off limits until someone decides to re-power her and bring her back as the 'Sane Scarlet Witch' in the Avengers. :)

[Babylon23]

Agree with you on a number of those.

Except Next Wave, That's supposed to be tongue in cheek, and debateably not canon. It is bloody funny tho... :D

Hey, I understand that it's meant to be humourous, but it's still an example of an out of character book. Just like all the Dazzler fans on this thread, I don't like to see my favourite characters written inconsistently. I'm a big fan of Photon and Machine Man, and what I'm seeing in Next Wave is not the characters I love.

[Babylon23]

Who knows. I'm betting she's off limits until someone decides to re-power her and bring her back as the 'Sane Scarlet Witch' in the Avengers. :)

I dream of the day when somebody reveals that it wasn't really Wanda at all during Disassembled/House of M, and that the "Sane Scarlet Witch" has been away somewhere.

I wouldn't mind seeing Claremont bring her back.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I dream of the day when somebody reveals that it wasn't really Wanda at all during Disassembled/House of M, and that the "Sane Scarlet Witch" has been away somewhere.

I wouldn't mind seeing Claremont bring her back.

I guess what would be good would be a compromise.

Excalibur, acting upon intel acquired by Sage or Pete Wisdom's spook connections, decide to try and seek out, and follow up leads, on the location of the Scarlet Witch. Only when they find her it's only Nocturne who encounters her. Wanda, of course, has no idea who she is (They've never met, right) and tthey get talking.

It becomes clear that all Wanda wants is to be left alone - no more superheroes, no more mutants, whatever. She disappeared for a reason. And she wants to stay hidden.

Talia accepts her request, and tells the rest of her team-mates that she never found her.

A neat little story, re-inforcing TJ's character and past, to those new readers unaware of it, and still inkeeping with House of M fallout, without pissing too many people off - fans wise or editorial wise...

[Neolucifer]

I'm not fond the of over-used idea of "lets say it was a double/ a doppleganger / a clone" .
As one of the few sickos that enjoyed Dissasembled (not saying it was flawless and great but i liked parts of it) , and as one that enjoyed HoM and so far its aftermath , i'm hoping that she either stay a depowered/ weakened crazy person , or that she regain her sanity and begin a long path to redemption (still depowered or heavily weakened , without being able to repowers people)

[Babylon23]

I have no problem with Wanda going nuts (it's happened before). What annoys me is the illogical and out of character way in which it happened. It's almost like the reason for her insanity was an afterthought.

To bring this back to Excalibur, imagine if Dazzler suddenly went mad for no reason, killed off all of her friends and teammates, then altered reality to appease a father she never liked and hadn't had any real interation with for years, then wiped out the powers of 1/2 the population of the Marvel U.

I don't think it's fair to complain about mischaracterisation of one character, while alloying the same mistreatment to slide on other characters. AS the Dazzler fans here have shown, every character is somebody's favourite.

[Neolucifer]

I don't think it's fair to complain about mischaracterisation of one character, while alloying the same mistreatment to slide on other characters.

I kinda disagree as i dont see Wanda's change as being sudden and without logic . The plot for disassembled , weither we like it or not , is based upon older stuff , even if of course and obviously , DA , the end result wasnt in the mind of those created this old stories .

You may take it as hypocrisy , but i really dont think its the same than Dazzler getting such a radical changes without warnings and reasons behind it .. or TJ suddenly becoming was she is in Uncanny HoM and NEX .

BTW i always loved Wanda , she is one of the few old avengers i cared about , and i enjoyed West coast avengers .

[DDM]

I kinda disagree as i dont see Wanda's change as being sudden and without logic . The plot for disassembled weither we like it or not , is based upon older stuff , even if of course and obviously , Da , the end result wasnt in the mind of those created this old stories .

You may take it as hypocrisy , but i really dont think its the same than Dazzler getting such a radical changes withotu warnings and reasons behind it .. or TJ suddenly becoming was she is in Uncanny HoM and NEX .

The "older stuff" you mention is also long resolved in West Coast Avengers. Hence, the implausibility behind "Avengers Disassembled" & House of M. Bendis just pulled something out of thin air with no groundwork to build from.

[Neolucifer]

The "older stuff" you mention is also long resolved in West Coast Avengers. Hence, the implausibility behind "Avengers Disassembled" & House of M. Bendis just pulled something out of thin air with no groundwork to build from.

I wont be baited into another "why it sux" debate .. there are plenty threads enough the subject :p
The fact still remains that there were precedents for the storyline to be used , be it in a bad story or a good one .

[DDM]

I wont be baited into another "why it sux" debate .. there are plenty threads enough the subject :p
The fact still remains that there were precedents for the storyline to be used , be it in a bad story or a good one .

Give me 3 substantial reasons other than the Scarlet Witch is a deus ex machina for Bendis' New Avengers & House of M. As I said before, the storyline has long been resolved in West Coast Avengers then answered why in Avengers Forever #1-12. What's insane is to go back to this idea since Bendis was out of his own ideas for the Scarlet Witch.

[Neolucifer]

Ok it sucked ! All happy inside now ? Dont you love being allowed to vent on bendis ? :)

[Babylon23]

Hey, I'm not venting on Bendis. I actually like a lot of his stuff.

The basic problem with Wanda going crazy is that it's based on an incorrect premise - that Wanda doesn't remember her children. As DDM says, this was resolved years ago in WCA, and there are numerous references to her remembering her children since then. For example, she uses the loss of her children to strengthen her resolve when she's trapped in Morgaine Le Fey's reality.

So, under one writer, we have a strong, determined, level-headed woman who Captain America describes as the heart of the Avengers. Under another writer, we have a suddenly crazy woman who kills her friends and alters reality.

Personally, I don't see how this is any better than the complaints Dazzler fans have.

[Neolucifer]

Mmm actually i wasnt aiming at you . Like i said i'm just not feeling like getting a re-hash about why it was bad , or why i think it worked , so now with less comedy , and no potential aggressive tone , i'm just conceiding a forfeit to you or DDM about the matter .

If like you said Wanda going under such changes was without notices , then yes its as bad as what the Dazzler fans have been complaining about . I sjust still dont feel it that way .

[Babylon23]

That's fair enough. I guess it comes down to how much you love a specific character. Wanda is my favourite Marvel character, so when she's out of character (Force Works, Disassembled) I get annoyed.

The Dazzler changes don't bother me, since I haven't read many of her pre X-Men appearances. The Dazzler I'm familiar with is the one from the Australia days.

Is it true Dazzler was recently presented as a drug addict?

[Neolucifer]

I'm not much of her fan neither , and i am mostly familiar with the australia days as well . its just that without someone indeed calling her current self Dazzler .. i wouldnt even feel its her , in both look and personality , but rather another new character with light based powers .
Althought to be fair i didnt follow each of her apparitions , so i can only trust infos from her true fans.

[Flameworthy]

Is it true Dazzler was recently presented as a drug addict?

In Marvel Knights Spider-Man #4 written by Mark Miller, it was said that she was in the hospital following a drug overdose. I have not read the issue, but I think that the characters who referred to it were going off tabloid rumors from what I've heard.

I'm disliking NEX Dazzler more and more. She just is being written just as badly out of character, as she was when she was in UXM. I'm getting tired of the fact that she seems to be a one trick pony when it comes to her powers. It was established long ago that she can do far more things with them, besides just laser beams.

[Babylon23]

Thanks for the info Flameworthy. I think it's safe to say that the drug idea can be easily dismissed.

[Booster Golden]

In Marvel Knights Spider-Man #4 written by Mark Miller

Frank Miller? There is no writer by the name of Mark Miller writing for marvel?

[Flameworthy]

Frank Miller? There is no writer by the name of Mark Miller writing for marvel?

Nope, it was Mark Millar (misplelled his last name before). He wrote for Marvel Knights Spiderman, but other than that I don't know what he's done or doing right now.

[Hi-Fi]

Nope, it was Mark Millar (misplelled his last name before). He wrote for Marvel Knights Spiderman, but other than that I don't know what he's done or doing right now.

He's writing Ultimates vol.2 and the upcoming Civil War. ;)

[Novaya Havoc]

Thanks for the info Flameworthy. I think it's safe to say that the drug idea can be easily dismissed.

Yeah... most people just chalk it up to "tabloid talk."

[Flameworthy]

He's writing Ultimates vol.2 and the upcoming Civil War. ;)

Gotcha. I knew I had heard his name circulating around, but I guess I just missed it. I honestly don't pay attention to writers or artists who arent' on or have been in X-Books, since that's mostly what I read.

[Hi-Fi]

Gotcha. I knew I had heard his name circulating around, but I guess I just missed it. I honestly don't pay attention to writers or artists who arent' on or have been in X-Books, since that's mostly what I read.

Well, he did write Ultimate X-Men for a long while, but i guess you don't read it.

You should, though. Ultimate Dazzler is so much fun. :)

[Novaya Havoc]

Well, he did wrote Ultimate X-Men for a long while, but i guess you don't read it.

You should, though. Ultimate Dazzler is so much fun. :)

Oh, Flameworthy reads the Ultimate. Everyone should read the Ultimate. It's the best X-Book out right now. :p

[Hi-Fi]

He did write, Hi-Fi. Not did wrote.

bleh, my english sucks.

[Hi-Fi]

Oh, Flameworthy reads the Ultimate. Everyone should read the Ultimate. It's the best X-Book out right now. :p

It really is.

[david r]

So, under one writer, we have a strong, determined, level-headed woman who Captain America describes as the heart of the Avengers. Under another writer, we have a suddenly crazy woman who kills her friends and alters reality.


Welcome to Joe Quesada's version of Marvel.

As for "New Excalibur", I'm a huge fan of Chris Claremont. But I'd have to say I've been pretty disappointed with this series so far. It just seems rather pointless and erratic. Too many characters running around, and no real direction or reason for these characters to be together.

[Flameworthy]

Well, he did wrote Ultimate X-Men for a long while, but i guess you don't read it.

You should, though. Ultimate Dazzler is so much fun. :)

Actually I do, but the thing is I only have the issues in which Ultimate Dazzler has appeared in. None of them were written by Millar. I only started this past year picking it up the book too, like around July I think, and I got all the back issues with Ultimate Dazzler in August off ebay. Oh, and yeah I love Ultimate Dazzler. I just wish she didn't have to be a coma right now.:(

[Hi-Fi]

Actually I do, but the thing is I only have the issues in which Ultimate Dazzler has appeared in. None of them were written by Miller. I only started this past year picking it up the book too, like around July I think, and I got all the back issues with Ultimate Dazzler in August off ebay. Oh, and yeah I love Ultimate Dazzler. I just wish she didn't have to be a coma right now.:(

Well, she appeared last issue, so I guess she's still recurring. I just asked Kirkman in his forum about her. Let's see if he'll answer it. ;)

[Novaya Havoc]

He did write, Hi-Fi. Not did wrote.

bleh, my english sucks.

Aw, it's worlds better than my Portuguese. ;)

<--- the little ~'s confuses him.

[Hi-Fi]

Aw, it's worlds better than my Portuguese. ;)

<--- the little ~'s confuses him.

Heh. Like that? pão, irmão, não? :D

[Flameworthy]

Well, she appeared last issue, so I guess she's still recurring. I just asked Kirkman in his forum about her. Let's see if he'll answer it. ;)

Nice. I'll eagerly await his answer then.:)

[Novaya Havoc]

Heh. Like that? pão, irmão, não? :D

I'm freakin OUT here!!!! Ahh!!! ~'s!

[Beast]

For those complaining that the team hasn't officially formed yet, looks like that's going to be handled with NEX #5. Here's Claremont's comments from Comixfan. :)
I truly hope CC gets a 616 x-book, but I have the same question. Where is this "rumor" stemming from?

Also, the XSE would not really make sense since there are not really that many mutants to have to watch over.
Yes, but ONE's trying to round the rest of them up, A good many are still unaccounted for, and there's still plenty of mutant/non mutant super badness in other parts of the world, such as Zanzibar, Madripoor....

I just wish that therer was someone doing something to protect those mutants who had lost their powers, and are being targeted by humans...HEY!!! what a cool concept for a new title!!!
Dear Anna:

Funny you should ask (and yes, I know the following quote isn't from "Uncanny" think of it as cross-promotion):

Excalibur #5, final scene --

Brian Braddock: "Sentient life on Earth was evolving. We may have issue with the direction, but it was still a natural process. Then, suddenly, in an instant, almost all the world's mutants lost their powers. The very genome that created them was erased.

"Is it any wonder that the reaction may prove as extreme? M-Day hasn't made things better for the world. For too many, it's quite the opposite. An too many will find profit and satisfaction in making things worse.

"I can't be true to my throne in OtherWorld by abandoning my responsibilities here. What threatens one ultimately endangers the other.

"Captain Britain, first and foremost, is champion of this realm. But I can't handle the job alone I ask for your help because God knows I need it. I'm not the man I was, my friends, or the hero. I intend to be better. Now as before Excalibur stands for an ideal --

"-- might in the service of right."

Dunno if that helps, or makes a difference in terms of the book itself, but that's pretty much where' we're going. (Would'a gone that way with "Uncanny" -- hence the introduction of "Bean", with his samisdat revelations about what's really happening behind the walls at Xavier's, to goad the team and shame their "jailors" into cutting them loose from the Gulag -- but that's another story for an alternate dimension.

By the way, if anyone's coming to the New York Comicon in a couple of weeks, I'm one of the Special Guests, available for autographs, Q&As and possibly even panels (though I haven't yet reveived a schedule.) And a whole week later, I'm a Guest of Honor at Naples (Italy) Comics Festival, from March 3 - 5. Doesn't look like I'm doing much else in terms of conventions this year, so if you're interested, catch me while you can!

Cordially,

Chris Claremont

[xakko]

Works for me. I have trouble believing Wisdom could convince him, but then, I'm biased.

I still don't get the confusion about the lineup.

[Beast]

Works for me. I have trouble believing Wisdom could convince him, but then, I'm biased.

I still don't get the confusion about the lineup.
Well, it seems something happens in #5 that convinces him that he and Excalibur really are needed. At least going by the dialogue that Claremont offered up. :)

[xakko]

Well, it seems something happens in #5 that convinces him that he and Excalibur really are needed. At least going by the dialogue that Claremont offered up. :)
I was referring to Wisdom saying that he himself was trying to form it and needed Captain Britain...

But I could see it... I'm worried about a Brian-Courtney romance, tho'.

I miss Meggan. *sigh*

[Nobbel]

I miss Meggan. *sigh*

I haven't missed her at all :D

[Beast]

I was referring to Wisdom saying that he himself was trying to form it and needed Captain Britain...

But I could see it... I'm worried about a Brian-Courtney romance, tho'.

I miss Meggan. *sigh*
You know Pete Wisdom, he's all about the control. That's why he's trying to bring the group together, he wants them to answer to him. I think that's somewhat what put Cappy off the idea in the first place. Plus he has no clue what happened to Meggan, so I can see why Brian wanted no part in it.

I'm not too worried about it, if it happens it happens. Especially if he believes her to not be Sat now. It's all the more fun when she turns around and eventually stabs him in the back. We'll have to see where it goes.

As for Meggan, I miss her also. But remember, if there's no body there's always a chance that we'll see her pop back sooner or later. Which will be even better if he gets it on with Courtney in the meantime. So Meggan can come back and kick Sat's pasty manipulative butt to the curb. :D

[Babylon23]

Thanks for the info Beast. Looks like all we needed was patience.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Cheers for that Beast. Wow. In that one bit of dialogue we have the explanation this title needed. I mean, I think we all 'knew' that was the reason for the team's formation but some people need that kind of thing spelled out.

If this is the direction Chris' going in, then it's a direction I'm more than happy with.

[xmanson]

Couldn't Wysdom have gotten some better people? I mean... Dazzler and Nocturne... he could find some better "champions"...

And I thought he would try sonme british people, not foreigners.

[Stagier]

after the last few seasons of angel, i can't hear the word champion without laughing. sorry.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Couldn't Wysdom have gotten some better people? I mean... Dazzler and Nocturne... he could find some better "champions"...

And I thought he would try sonme british people, not foreigners.

Part of the problem is that since Excalibur sibanded in 1998, and more specifically since Wisdom left the team a short while before that, there has been no direct contact with 'heroes' in the UK. It's all gone a bit quiet. Even Captain Britain upped and left for Otherworld without really telling anybody.

Union Jack and Spitfire have been in America with The Invaders. Rhane Sinclair and Siryn are both off on another title. Bansee's, well... kyou know... The characters from Marvel UK simply seem to have been almost off limits since that imprint folded. And there's no way Psylocke will ever be allowed toleave the X-Men (Plus she's been dead for quite a while).

Think of it like this, it's not like super heroes have an entry in the UK phone book. By some strange coincidence all these guys turn up in the Uk at roughly the same time. So Wisdom tries to get them to form a team. He picks them because they're the only ones he knows for certain are there right now. He doesn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I'm sure the team will gain new members as time goes on. The cast will change. Lionheart may or may not join. Captain UK may show up. Who knows. But the bottom of the line is that there aren't many British A-Listers. Marvel's always been a little wary of pushing British characters into the limelight, fearing they wouldn't be popular.

I don't actually think the current lineup is that bad. Cain's still learning to play the hero. Nocturne's still learning what it's like to be in this dimension. And Dazzler's re-learning what it's like to be a hero again and not thought to be dead.

Plenty of room for development.

[fishtaco]

Couldn't Wysdom have gotten some better people? I mean... Dazzler and Nocturne... he could find some better "champions"...

And I thought he would try sonme british people, not foreigners.He picked who was available. What's wrong with Dazzler and Nocturne?

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

He picked who was available. What's wrong with Dazzler and Nocturne?

I've always liked Nocturne. She was great in Exiles. I know she's not as kickass and strong willed as she was in that book, but she's new to our dimension. I want to see her develop.

I only saw a few issues featuring Dazzler before this book. I've heard all the complaints. But to be fair she's been out of comics for a decade. She's going to have changed.

I'd be more intersted in asking why she's turned out as she has, rather than just shouting about it. What happened in the last decade off page, that changed her?

[fishtaco]

I'd be more intersted in asking why she's turned out as she has, rather than just shouting about it. What happened in the last decade off page, that changed her?Possibilities include: Losing her husband, who she does not know if he is even alive or dead. He is indeed alive, and if Claremont read his back issues and has the space for it in the book, he can have Nocturne tell Dazzler that Longshot is alive, since she saw him in Exiles 18-19.

Life has also become loads harder for mutants, and she is just about out of places to play gigs at, because she is a mutant. In fact, Dazzler originally joined the X-Men when she had nowhere else to turn to, because nobody would hire her since she's a mutant.

Plus, she also lost her baby, who is possibly Shatterstar. The details of this plotline are left dangling, and it's very convoluted so I doubt it will be picked up again. It's possible, but unlikely.

[xmanson]

He picked who was available. What's wrong with Dazzler and Nocturne?

I don't really like them.

Enough reason for me.


And it just too much coincidence... it doesn't come as an effort really from Wisdom since he stubled on these people already almost together.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

And it just too much coincidence... it doesn't come as an effort really from Wisdom since he stubled on these people already almost together.

That was partly because of House of M. It's how Juggernaut and Nocturne, end up in the UK, and it's certainly how Captain Britain ended up back on 616.

Wisdom was already there, because he works there. Sage was there because, we assume, of the Hellfire Club originally, although that doesn't entirely hold water now...

Dazzler was touring. Wherever she could. She wasn't too fussed. She needed the money.

If you read back over all the House of M issues of Uncanny, and then into New Excalibur in one go, this does all largely makes sense. But if you look at it, dipping in here and there it might not be so clear.

They were all in the same place at tye same time, in the aftermath of one of the worst global catastrophe's in Earth's history. That's going to change your perspective. And as none of these characters was attatched to a group, in the current climate it makes sense to stick together.

I still don't understand what people don't seem to get in all this. It's a lot more plausible than many books.

[Vegetarian Goat]

Couldn't Wysdom have gotten some better people? I mean... Dazzler and Nocturne... he could find some better "champions"...

There are none better. ;)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

There are none better. ;)

No British mutants, better, I'll grant you.

[Babylon23]

A few things I like about this explanation:

1) It shows that Brian is intelligent, and not the buffoon some writers have presented him as.
2) It shows that Brian understands his limitations, and is willing to ask for help when he needs it. There's a certain vulnerability here, which may also be connected to the loss of his wife.
3) It simple, and it's noble. No 15-part slowly bring the team together BS.
4) It reminds me a little of Rachel's speech in the original Excalibur one-shot that brought the team together.

[xakko]

A few things I like about this explanation:

1) It shows that Brian is intelligent, and not the buffoon some writers have presented him as.
2) It shows that Brian understands his limitations, and is willing to ask for help when he needs it. There's a certain vulnerability here, which may also be connected to the loss of his wife.
3) It simple, and it's noble. No 15-part slowly bring the team together BS.
4) It reminds me a little of Rachel's speech in the original Excalibur one-shot that brought the team together.
I agree a lot.

Especially since the impetus for the original team was partly to do with the "deaths" of the X-men during the Fall of the Mutants storyline.

It seems it is a lot of the same voices making the same criticisms about a CC penned book. *shrug* I'm enjoying it so far.

[Dermie]

Union Jack and Spitfire have been in America with The Invaders.

Actually, the Invaders have spent very little time in America. Their missions have mostly been in Mazikhandar, and they've spent some time in the UK and Antarctica. Anyway, that's just me being nitpicky--your point about them being away from home still stands. ;)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

A few things I like about this explanation:

1) It shows that Brian is intelligent, and not the buffoon some writers have presented him as.
2) It shows that Brian understands his limitations, and is willing to ask for help when he needs it. There's a certain vulnerability here, which may also be connected to the loss of his wife.
3) It simple, and it's noble. No 15-part slowly bring the team together BS.
4) It reminds me a little of Rachel's speech in the original Excalibur one-shot that brought the team together.

I agree with you there. So far, in the first four issues, we haven't really seen a lot of Brian's deeper side. I was slightly concerned at the slightly two dimensional approach that Claremont seemed to have been taking. This has restored my faith. More of it.

[Beast]

Hmm, someone elsewhere mentioned this... and I wonder if it could be related to the whole 'Dying Thing' that CC is talking about in relation to Dazzler. It's from 'The Pulse: House of M - Special Edition'. Most of the storylines that were refrenced in the issue were used in HoM, or tied-into things that spiraled out of HoM. Curious indeed.
The Pulse: House of M - Special Edition

"WHEN IS IT TIME...

Poor national tv talk show host, Alison Blaire, whose bright shining smile brightens every dreary drone's mediocre life. With her big contract negotiation out of the way, when will she break the news to her daytime audience that her mutant days are numbered due to a rare blood disorder that has all but pulled the plug on her signature light show?"

[Vegetarian Goat]

For obvious reasons, i hope it's forgotten about.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Hmm, someone elsewhere mentioned this... and I wonder if it could be related to the whole 'Dying Thing' that CC is talking about in relation to Dazzler. It's from 'The Pulse: House of M - Special Edition'. Most of the storylines that were refrenced in the issue were used in HoM, or tied-into things that spiraled out of HoM. Curious indeed.

Hmmm... curious indeed. Itr may well get picked up on, again. It's damn rare for something like that not to come back in a Claremont book. Even 30 issues later...

We'll see.

As long as it's not a return for the Legacy Virus, I'm okay with it...

[Novaya Havoc]

Nothing in that special said Ali was dying. It said she might be losing her powers. She was like Oprah in HoM, and the Pulse was like a tabloid rag.

Doubt it has any connection.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Nothing in that special said Ali was dying. It said she might be losing her powers. She was like Oprah in HoM, and the Pulse was like a tabloid rag.

Doubt it has any connection.

I wouldn't be surprised if her powers weren't shown to be sparking out somewhere witin the first 14 issues of NEX. It would be a very Claremont thing to do.

[Novaya Havoc]

I wouldn't be surprised if her powers weren't shown to be sparking out somewhere witin the first 14 issues of NEX. It would be a very Claremont thing to do.

Why remove one character's powers once HoM basically did that already?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Why remove one character's powers once HoM basically did that already?

No, I don't think it will be a removal. Rather a slighty unpredictable, and untimely shorting in/out of her powers, when she needs them most. Think about how some characters played up when they had the legacy virus. Maverick, (off the top of my head, as I have been posting to another thread about him) would lose control of his plasma blasts, sometimes burning powerfully hot, other times failing entirely to activate them, and several points in between.

It's just following up on an old plotline.

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

I think that's something Claremont really should follow up on. I don't want Dazzler de-powered. But if her powers were like Omega level one second and defunct the next, that could be cool.

[Flameworthy]

I think that's something Claremont really should follow up on. I don't want Dazzler de-powered. But if her powers were like Omega level one second and defunct the next, that could be cool.

I'm sorry, but with all the crap Dazzler fans have had to put up with over the past decade, this would just would just be the icing on the cake. How is giving her some unknown random disease going to make her more interesting? It would just make me lose more respect for CC's writing abilities, and with the way he's writing/written Dazzler it's already pretty low as it is. He should just stick to building upon her character as she is now, while at least staying somewhat true to her character, since he'll never portray the TRUE Dazzler from her series.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'm sorry, but with all the crap Dazzler fans have had to put up with over the past decade, this would just would just be the icing on the cake. How is giving her some unknown random disease going to make her more interesting? It would just make me lose more respect for CC's writing abilities, and with the way he's writing/written Dazzler it's already pretty low as it is. He should just stick to building upon her character as she is now, while at least staying somewhat true to her character, since he'll never portray the TRUE Dazzler from her series.

But some explanation of how how she is right now, is needed. If this blood disorder is somehow part of this, so be it.

Dazzler doesn't have much character right now, because she's been out of comics proper for well over a decade. I'd like explanations as to why. Right now she's just a has been singer who can blast light from her fingers, sometiumes in solid form.

She's not the old Dazzler, but you can't always go back.

If I complained every time they took Captain Britain's powers away / shunted off into limbo / lost in the time stream between issues, for no other reason than the writer could write a character who was British, I would keep going for a loooooooooong time. You just have to accept it and hope things get better.

[Novaya Havoc]

But some explanation of how how she is right now, is needed. If this blood disorder is somehow part of this, so be it.

Dazzler doesn't have much character right now, because she's been out of comics proper for well over a decade. I'd like explanations as to why. Right now she's just a has been singer who can blast light from her fingers, sometiumes in solid form.

She's not the old Dazzler, but you can't always go back.

OMG it was a tabloid-like special with "celebrity gossip." There is no "blood disorder."

[The Sword Is Drawn]

OMG it was a tabloid-like special with "celebrity gossip." There is no "blood disorder."

You're probably right. But I guess that what I'm trying to say is that if this sputtering out of powers were to occur, then it doesn't necessarily mean a degrading of her character. Just looking at my previous exampl;e, did it harm Maverick? Well not really, he got enough from this for a one shot, an issue of X-Men unlimited and a 12 issues series. There WAS enough to keep going with.

Why should something like this hurt Dazzler, as a character. She's not exactly a clean slate, but certasinly has a fair amount of space to be worked on, and we might actually see more of her character, having to come to terms with a certain amount of unreliability to her photon blasts.

[Novaya Havoc]

You're probably right. But I guess that what I'm trying to say is that if this sputtering out of powers were to occur, then it doesn't necessarily mean a degrading of her character. Just looking at my previous exampl;e, did it harm Maverick? Well not really, he got enough from this for a one shot, an issue of X-Men unlimited and a 12 issues series. There WAS enough to keep going with.

Why should something like this hurt Dazzler, as a character. She's not exactly a clean slate, but certasinly has a fair amount of space to be worked on, and we might actually see more of her character, having to come to terms with a certain amount of unreliability to her photon blasts.

Flame said it would hurt the character; not me. But it's not a direction I want to see her go in. In fact, Dazz would probably WELCOME no longer "being a mutant" so she could work on her career full-force.

Dazz fans -- like any character fan -- want to see their character treated well and with respect. Depowering, killing, butching, denigrating, Longshot-ing, et cetera don't do her justice. Dazzler has fans because of the character she IS (and was).

Either Marvel wants to make Dazzler consistent with what her fans liked and market that to a new audience, or they want to completely "re-do" Dazzler to market to a new audience at the expense of the fans. Fandom will only go so far before they say "Wait... that isn't my character/team/concept." It's just how it works.

[Faded]

Flame said it would hurt the character; not me. But it's not a direction I want to see her go in. In fact, Dazz would probably WELCOME no longer "being a mutant" so she could work on her career full-force.

Dazz fans -- like any character fan -- want to see their character treated well and with respect. Depowering, killing, butching, denigrating, Longshot-ing, et cetera don't do her justice. Dazzler has fans because of the character she IS (and was).

Either Marvel wants to make Dazzler consistent with what her fans liked and market that to a new audience, or they want to completely "re-do" Dazzler to market to a new audience at the expense of the fans. Fandom will only go so far before they say "Wait... that isn't my character/team/concept." It's just how it works.

Great post. :cool:

[jarrod]

Either Marvel wants to make Dazzler consistent with what her fans liked and market that to a new audience, or they want to completely "re-do" Dazzler to market to a new audience at the expense of the fans. Fandom will only go so far before they say "Wait... that isn't my character/team/concept." It's just how it works.
Well... given the likely size of Dazzler's fanbase, is there really much risk in a "re-do"? I dunno, Claremont's other major "re-do"s seem to have been fairly successful among his audience ("honorable samurai" Wolverine, "cosmic powered" Jean Grey, "action junkie" Psylocke, etc).... who's to say the same won't happen with Dazz?

[xakko]

For better or worse (and yes, we know where many Dazzler fans fall on this issue), Claremont has had a major hand on most of Dazzler's appearances for the last 19 years. It's hard to say how the failure of her movie and loss of her career would've taken poor Alison. Slumming with Lila was a reasonable path if you feel that singing was that important to her, as well as an "in" for Malice.

That's compared to 7 years of her own series.

Now, I sympathize- boy do I sympathize. I know what it's like to have your favorite character abused and destroyed by writers. The point is, Ali is no longer the girl she was. The key is, how would she react to the tragedies that have happened to her. She's literally one of the highest profile mutants in the world- it would be like Madonna outing herself as a... god, I can't think of anything radical enough... maybe a neo-nazi. (Bad example, I know, but her schtick is to try and shock people). In a post House of M world, where anti-mutant hysteria is once again on the ascendancy, a disguise seems to be in order. Maybe not pink hair, but, quite frankly, if disguise is her goal, the fervor over the hair on here- almost greater than perceived injustices done to the character- would indicate that it succeeded.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

For better or worse (and yes, we know where many Dazzler fans fall on this issue), Claremont has had a major hand on most of Dazzler's appearances for the last 19 years. It's hard to say how the failure of her movie and loss of her career would've taken poor Alison. Slumming with Lila was a reasonable path if you feel that singing was that important to her, as well as an "in" for Malice.

That's compared to 7 years of her own series.

Now, I sympathize- boy do I sympathize. I know what it's like to have your favorite character abused and destroyed by writers. The point is, Ali is no longer the girl she was. The key is, how would she react to the tragedies that have happened to her. She's literally one of the highest profile mutants in the world- it would be like Madonna outing herself as a... god, I can't think of anything radical enough... maybe a neo-nazi. (Bad example, I know, but her schtick is to try and shock people). In a post House of M world, where anti-mutant hysteria is once again on the ascendancy, a disguise seems to be in order. Maybe not pink hair, but, quite frankly, if disguise is her goal, the fervor over the hair on here- almost greater than perceived injustices done to the character- would indicate that it succeeded.

Is probably the best way to look at it. Yes.

[Pryde&Wisdom]

I didn't even know Dazzler HAD her own series, I've only seen her X-Men.

I'm sorry, but I don't really get what people are so angry about Dazzler for. What's wrong with the way she's currently being written, styled etc...?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I didn't even know Dazzler HAD her own series, I've only seen her X-Men.

I'm sorry, but I don't really get what people are so angry about Dazzler for. What's wrong with the way she's currently being written, styled etc...?

Is probably not the way to make friends with some people on this board... :rolleyes:

Welcome back. :D

[Novaya Havoc]

I didn't even know Dazzler HAD her own series, I've only seen her X-Men.

I'm sorry, but I don't really get what people are so angry about Dazzler for. What's wrong with the way she's currently being written, styled etc...?

For me, it's everything for the most part. I loved how he wrote her in NEX 1 (though, as always, hated the look). But from there? All downhill.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

For me, it's everything for the most part. I loved how he wrote her in NEX 1 (though, as always, hated the look). But from there? All downhill.

Is it just things like the sudden mororbike obsession or is there something more specific?

[Beast]

Cool, Claremont mentioned on Comixfan that Alison's time with Longshot would be addressed. Good to hear, since it was such a major aspect of her life, even though we never saw much of it on panel. Claremont's right, Dazzler and TJ do have a lot in common in many areas, including lost love and a failed pregnancy. :)
Long story short (pun intended)!

Marvel will NOT heavily reference Longshot/Dazzler. The plot was a bust, and fans of each character want them SEPARATE. It won't happen. Period. Mark my words.

If it does, it will be a tribute to continuity-slaves, but just a reference. It will not be on Marvel's long-term agenda. They were never popular as a couple, and they won't be now. They are much better as indiv. characters.

Thus, the direction for NEX doesn't hold.
Dear Novaya:

Sorry, wrong.

Especially when you consider that this cycle of events, as regards Significant Others and Significant (Primal) Losses is something that Alison and TJ have very much in common.

Cordially,

Chris Claremont

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Cool, Claremont mentioned on Comixfan that Alison's time with Longshot would be addressed. Good to hear, since it was such a major aspect of her life, even though we never saw much of it on panel. Claremont's right, Dazzler and TJ do have a lot in common in many areas, including lost love and a failed pregnancy. :)

Where did that come from Beast?

[Beast]

Where did that come from Beast?
Comixfan, the New Excalibur thread. CC posts over there regularly. :)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Well, yes thery do have quite a lot in common, I suppose. The music, the pregnancy the dimension hopping... and Mojo.