Hawkman Question (IC #4)

[PatrickG]

Johns' Hawkman is still technically an avatar, right? And his history is tied to Thanagar (his current body was born there) and the JLA now despite being Carter Hall?

So which earth is Hawkman on now?

And for bonus points, does anybody else hope we get a Katar Hol out of this? One with the JLA history? And that we could somehow shift Carter into being the smiling old guy with all the JSA history (he was the team's most frequent chairman, not the rebel loner) but none of this mindwipe stuff?

I suppose there could be concerns that it would muck the character up but it seems to me like, as is, he's only fixed at a stable enough level to tell stories about him and that to REALLY fix him, Carter needs to be a JSA guy and Katar needs to be a JLA guy.

If you like, get rid of one of them. Come up with explanations for their name similarities. But Katar Hol is the Hawkman who belongs in JLA history arguing with Ollie Queen and Carter is the Hawkman who belongs with the JSA.

Anybody else with me?

[Captain Jim]

I am. And I also had the same questions pop up in my mind.

If Katar reappears, however, I hope it's the original version and not the latter day Truman revamp. (Actually, I can't see how the latter character's return would help solve any continuity problems.)

[PatrickG]

I'd be fine with elements of the Truman revamp being grafted onto the classic Katar.

Heck, wasn't that the original intention? Wasn't Hawkworld supposed to start with a caption that said "Ten years ago" and the continuity problems started when that caption got removed and it was treated as "present day"?

[stealthwise]

I don't really care either way. Hawkman wasn't interesting even when Johns was working on him. Then again, that's just my preference.

[Beta Ray Bill]

I for one hope we get Katar back after all is said and done. I understood getting rid of the Earth-2 Aquaman, Green Arrow, etc. because they were essentially doubles of the Earth-1 characters but the Hawkmen were two completely different people. Just like the two Flashes, Green Lanterns, and Atoms. They should have been allowed to coexist.

[The Batman]

i loved the sci-fi Katar Hol Hawkman and really loved the Hawkworld revamp. i'd be really happy to get either of them back.

[Suzanne]

I like Carter, so I'd be happy if he remained Hawkman. More than anything, however, I would like for things to be reset as they originally were before Hawkworld changed everything.

[Zero Hunter]

I doubt we are going to see Katar again. Johns put to much time into tying everything up and making the character usabla afain to just muck it all bakc up again. I belive that avator stuff is now gone as Hawkman is simply Carter Hall, but with memories of all his past lives. He did have a little of Kater in his head but I don't think it is still there.

As far as I can tell Kater is considered dead and gone in the current DCU, and now that Hawkwomen is dead too there is no reason to bring him back.

[Captain Jim]

But if Earth 2 remains, which world are you going to stick Carter on? He really belongs on Earth 2, but the retcons made him a member of the early JLA as well, and we've seen him a lot with that group recently, such as in Identity Crisis and Crisis of Confidence.

[Captain Jim]

Heck, wasn't that the original intention? Wasn't Hawkworld supposed to start with a caption that said "Ten years ago" and the continuity problems started when that caption got removed and it was treated as "present day"?

That's what I've heard too.

[Captain Jim]

the Hawkmen were two completely different people.

I agree completely. And the orginal Katar (silver age) is the one I grew up with. He's also the one who was really in the JLA. See, that's why I'm unhappy. Nothing against the Earth 2 Carter Hall, but he's a totally different character than the Katar I grew up with and loved.

[PatrickG]

But if Earth 2 remains, which world are you going to stick Carter on? He really belongs on Earth 2, but the retcons made him a member of the early JLA as well, and we've seen him a lot with that group recently, such as in Identity Crisis and Crisis of Confidence.

Well, I'd just say the JSA appearances are Carter and the JLA and Green Arrow appearances get retconned into being Katar. We could just say that they wore identical costumes for awhile or something.

And if Earth-2 did come back, I'd relaunch JSA with a new #1 in the next year.

Johns isn't going back to JSA now. Levitz is only on for a few issues. Chunks of the current run would be heavily retconned if Earth-2 came back, unless people just remembered being merged with Earth-1 for a few years. And "JSA" (the three letter acronym title) was launched as a companion to Morrison's JLA, which is gone.

I'd launch "Justice Society" with a new #1 and spend the first arc on a story which touches upon the overall story of the team's history through present. A renamed "Justice Society Classified" would fill in the blanks.

But here's a CRAZY thought. JSA won't be caught up with OYL until March. Dan Didio likes these "Rebirth"-style events. He's willing to push unpopular titles that match the company creative direction and axe popular titles that don't. He doesn't like duplicate names and he doesn't like heroes debuting before Superman. He has admitted a fondness for annual JLA/JSA crossovers.

So what if the grand scheme is to remove the JSA from the DCU proper? The legacy types get revamped as standalone characters. Stargirl gets a tweaked origin. Mr. Terrific and Dr. Midnite don't need much tweaking. They get treated as the Earth-1 counterparts of the JSA members whose names they share.

So we keep most of the younger JSAers (JSA connections removed) and a few join the various teams. Stargirl in Teen Titans. Mr. Terrific and Dr. Midnight along with the Big 5 in JLA.

Meanwhile, JSA Classified starts us off with Vandal Savage being very ticked at events on Earth-2. (If everyone remembers their lives from when the earths were merged, the results of the split might upset him.) This launches his fight with Alan Scott in JSA Classified (the only confirmed OYL JSA tale aside from maybe Hawkgirl).

When September rolls around and the main JSA book is caught up with OYL in September, it ends.

And we revisit Earth-2 once a year in a JLA/JSA team-up and on special occasions until demand gets high enough for a relaunched JSA to be a hot Top 10 book by Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch or something.

[Captain Jim]

Well, I'd just say the JSA appearances are Carter and the JLA and Green Arrow appearances get retconned into being Katar. We could just say that they wore identical costumes for awhile or something.

Oh, I agree. I was just reacting to Zero Hunter, who said, "As far as I can tell Kater is considered dead and gone in the current DCU, and now that Hawkwomen is dead too there is no reason to bring him back."

[glennsim]

I for one hope we get Katar back after all is said and done. I understood getting rid of the Earth-2 Aquaman, Green Arrow, etc. because they were essentially doubles of the Earth-1 characters but the Hawkmen were two completely different people. Just like the two Flashes, Green Lanterns, and Atoms. They should have been allowed to coexist.


They did, for a while. Unlike Superman, Batman, etc., Hawkworld didn't say there had never been another Hawkman. In fact, Katar met Carter Hall.

The problem was that they pushed Katar's debut up so far that a hole was created in the middle of the timeline, rather than at the beginning as it was with the other eliminated duplicates.

[glennsim]

But if Earth 2 remains, which world are you going to stick Carter on? He really belongs on Earth 2, but the retcons made him a member of the early JLA as well, and we've seen him a lot with that group recently, such as in Identity Crisis and Crisis of Confidence.

I'm not assuming that the history of the merged Earth has changed. So the history of the merged Earth is that Carter was a member of the JSA and JLA, but once he appears on Earth 2 he finds himself with a different history there, where he was only a member of the JSA.

The next issue will hopefully reveal what the retroactive history effects of the creation of this Earth 2 is. It might be that the Earth 2 heroes all find themselves with full memories of both lives, or they may only really remember their merged-Earth lives, and have to find out what this world considers to be their history. Or they may forget their merged-Earth lives and think they had been on this Earth 2 all along (with Kal-L being the exception).

[Suzanne]

I think they'll remember Earth 2 but won't forget "Earth 1." That's where the conflict could pop up, sort of like what Power Girl is going through. They could feel fondness for E2 but recognize that what Alex and Superboy P are doing is wrong.

As for Carter's fate, with Kendra assuming the title, I was sure he would die. After Earth 2's rebirth however, I think he'll be zapped there like his other contemporaries. He may have some of Katar's memories, but his body and soul are his. Kendra's another matter. Her physical being was born here, but her soul (aunt Shiera's) originated on E2.

[Beta Ray Bill]

They did, for a while. Unlike Superman, Batman, etc., Hawkworld didn't say there had never been another Hawkman. In fact, Katar met Carter Hall.

The problem was that they pushed Katar's debut up so far that a hole was created in the middle of the timeline, rather than at the beginning as it was with the other eliminated duplicates.
I remember. The editors tried to plug some of the holes in the continuity with that whole Fel Andor business but we can all see how well that worked out...

Then Zero Hour happened and it really screwed everything up. Merging Carter, Shiera, and Katar into a single being equals bad idea if I do say so myself. I also didn't like that this version sported those real wings that grew from his back.

Sometimes I wish that Carter Hall would've just stayed gone fighting Ragnarok forever.

[Apathy Boy]

I don't really care either way. Hawkman wasn't interesting even when Johns was working on him. Then again, that's just my preference.You haven't read James Robinson's THE GOLDEN AGE, have you? It's impossible to read that and not love Carter Hall. I was never a big fan of Hawkman prior to that (despite the super freakin' cool costume), but I'll always have a soft spot for the character now.

Katar Hol remains dull as dishwater, however.

[Captain Jim]

Katar Hol remains dull as dishwater, however.

Which one? I didn't like the retcon version, but loved the original.

[PatrickG]

I think they'll remember Earth 2 but won't forget "Earth 1." That's where the conflict could pop up, sort of like what Power Girl is going through. They could feel fondness for E2 but recognize that what Alex and Superboy P are doing is wrong.

As for Carter's fate, with Kendra assuming the title, I was sure he would die. After Earth 2's rebirth however, I think he'll be zapped there like his other contemporaries. He may have some of Katar's memories, but his body and soul are his. Kendra's another matter. Her physical being was born here, but her soul (aunt Shiera's) originated on E2.

Well, Kendra's body is that of Kendra Saunders, relative of Speed Saunders... Who was an Earth-2 character. Both by blood and spirit, she is an Earth-2 native.

Carter's the one whose Earth-2 connection is more problematic. His body comes from Thanagar, which from the Earth-1 universe. His soul comes from Earth-2.

I wonder if this isn't why Kendra is taking over the Hawk-title.

Even if the earths get restored, I'd say there's a good chance that this split messes with Carter's body and soul being connected.

[Suzanne]

Ah, I didn't take his rebirth on Thanagar into consideration :o Still, I remember Carter explaining his connection to Katar Hol in an earlier issue. He said that the time spend with Katar resulted in him being physically rejuvinated but still in his own body, along with having some of Katar's memories. That's the main reason why I think he'll go back to Earth 2.

You have a point about Kendra's family, but as far as I know she was introduced well after CoIE, so I think that would make her Earth 1 property. I guess will find out tomorrow in the Rann/Thanagar special.

(Damn, my head hurts trying to figure this out ;) Makes you wonder what'll happen to Black Canary since her mother originally came from Earth 2....)

[PatrickG]

Black canary's BODY came from Earth-2 as well. It just had her mother's brain in it pre-Crisis.