A superboy-prime question

[TheSentryLives]

is he at pre-crisis level of power? or post crisis?

[xnef1025]

Pre. He can move planets.

[Buried Alien]

If he's moving planets, then he's definitely at Pre-COIE power levels.

It might also explain why he's doing much more damage than he wants to. Post-COIE metahumans, tough as they are, weren't built to handle the power levels exhibited by Pre-COIE Kryptonians.


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[Mr.Manifesto]

at first, i thought that it was retarded that he was refered to as being strong enough to move planets. i'm not terribly familiar with the pre-crisis character though, (i'm only 25 so it was a bit before my time) but i'm glad to hear that it makes sense for his character. it also makes more sense that if he's going nuts, that people are going to die. people can complain about it, that his rampage was too bloody, but cmon. if somebody can move a planet, they would be able to kill with a flick of their eyelash. in the real world, a person with that kind of power would be killing people by accident all the time.

[TheSentryLives]

but what I don't get is if he is pre-crisis level. How the hell can anyone stop him or let alone make him bleed. The Flashes were capable of pushing him and that little crybaby bart was able to punch him without breaking his hand. He should have been able to dispose of them.

[DDM]

but what I don't get is if he is pre-crisis level. How the hell can anyone stop him or let alone make him bleed. The Flashes were capable of pushing him and that little crybaby bart was able to punch him without breaking his hand. He should have been able to dispose of them.

It was Pantha's blood he had on his hands. He did not bleed.

[xnef1025]

The protection that allowed Bart to travel at lightspeed to reach the speedforce and not be cut up by the air molecules around him was also amplifying his resistance to Kryptonian invulnerability... that's the excuse I made up in my head while I read that :)

[Buried Alien]

Back in the Grant Morrison run of JLA, we were introduced to the concept of the "Infinite Mass" punch that Flash (Wally) could pull off. This enabled Wally to punch a White Martian (with strength and durability comparable to J'Onn J'Onzz's) into orbit without hurting himself. It's probably the same principle at work.

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[TheSentryLives]

but I thought when it came to pre-crisis kryptonians nothing could phase one.

[lucasb]

but I thought when it came to pre-crisis kryptonians nothing could phase one.

In the Pre-Crisis universe, that was pretty much true. Post-Crisis, it's kind of been hinted that the laws of physics are at least a LITTLE closer to realistic, enough so that Pre-C Kryptonians aren't quite as godlike when brought "here", (See the Many Happy Returns storyline in PAD's Supergirl book), though still much more powerful than present-day Kryptonians.

[Andromeda_Daxamite]

I just find it funny how Superboy Prime is Superman Prime at his most ridiculous levels. That and the whole he can charge of any sunlight now.

[PatrickG]

Flashes are MUCH more powerful post-Crisis and especially since Wally learned about the Speed Force.

Wally defeated the Anti-Monitor pretty much by himself in FLASH #150 (it was a time travel story) and the only problem was that in doing so, he blew up the earth.

And Anti-Monitor could make pre-Crisis Superman bleed. So it stands to reason that Wally could. Especially since hundreds of pre-Crisis heroes were no match for the Anti-Monitor... and Wally, when sufficiently enraged, was.

With the Speed Force, speedsters in the DCU were effectively comparable to pre-Crisis Kryptonians in all respects aside from moving really big things like planets.

Wally wouldn't beat J'Onn or Superman in an armwrestling contest. But he could travel through time under his own power. Barry couldn't do that without his treadmill. Pre-Crisis Superman was the last person to do that until Wally did.

[PatrickG]

I just find it funny how Superboy Prime is Superman Prime at his most ridiculous levels. That and the whole he can charge of any sunlight now.

Pre-Crisis Kryptonians didn't store solar energy. Being in contact with it "unlocked" their powers.

[Kain Darkwind]

I'd just like to point out that it isn't entirely clear whether the KKRRAAAKKK sound is Superpunk's jaw, or Bart's knuckles. Or possibly just Bart breaking the sound barrier with his fists. Just because its rocking that little snotnosed supershit's head around, doesn't mean that it was hurting him


Also, I'd like to mention that Barry could time travel without the treadmill, but it was harder to do so. As a matter of fact, Barry's final run against the AM sent him back in time to his very own origin.

[PatrickG]

True. But Wally's far surpassed Barry in terms of power.

He freakin' took apart the Anti-Monitor's armor at a point when the heroes of five worlds were hard pressed to do so.

[Andromeda_Daxamite]

Pre-Crisis Kryptonians didn't store solar energy. Being in contact with it "unlocked" their powers.


I know. Superboy Prime needed a certain sun to do that though. And that certain sun only existed in Earth Prime universe.

[PatrickG]

As noted elsewhere, Superboy Prime never even got powers from the sun until this story.

He got his powers from Halley's Comet.

It seems he's gotten a boost from the Post-Crisis sun. But he's the one Superman I know of who is completely unreliant on a particular kind of sunlight. This was a plot point when he appeared.

[Buried Alien]

Flashes are MUCH more powerful post-Crisis and especially since Wally learned about the Speed Force.

Wally defeated the Anti-Monitor pretty much by himself in FLASH #150 (it was a time travel story) and the only problem was that in doing so, he blew up the earth.

And Anti-Monitor could make pre-Crisis Superman bleed. So it stands to reason that Wally could. Especially since hundreds of pre-Crisis heroes were no match for the Anti-Monitor... and Wally, when sufficiently enraged, was.

With the Speed Force, speedsters in the DCU were effectively comparable to pre-Crisis Kryptonians in all respects aside from moving really big things like planets.

Wally wouldn't beat J'Onn or Superman in an armwrestling contest. But he could travel through time under his own power. Barry couldn't do that without his treadmill. Pre-Crisis Superman was the last person to do that until Wally did.

Actually, all Speedsters in the DCU have experienced an overhaul in their range of abilities due to the changes that followed COIE...gaining in some areas and losing in others.

In raw speed, all the Speedsters were probably faster Pre-COIE. In the Post-COIE DCU, none of the Speedsters have ever surpassed the speed of light without entering the Speed Force. Pre-COIE, however, Barry, Wally, and Jay could travel faster than light and often did...without any strange side effects. In Barry's death run, as a matter of fact, he ran fast enough to catch a tachyon particle...theorized as being *unable to exist* at velocities less than several hundred times the speed of light. :eek:

The destructive vibrations that Wally used to destroy the Anti-Monitor in FLASH # 150 - that was something new. No Speedster Pre-COIE had that kind of sheer destructive power.

As for the Cosmic Treadmill...any one of the Speedsters can travel through time without it, but using it enables the Speedster to accurately gauge the point in time that he/she is traveling to. None of them actually need the treadmill to travel through time, however. In one of his earliest adventures (way back in SHOWCASE # 4), Barry was able to travel to the far future and back without the benefit of the Cosmic Treadmill (he hadn't designed/built it yet). Barry created the treadmill later so he wouldn't need to rely on guesswork to accurately arrive at his target time.

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[Pariah128]

PC powerlevels vary. SBP has early 80s PC strength, he's a planet mover, but not much higher above that. He isnt only the level of the uber PC 60s superman, because if he was then he would be beyond the flashes capacity to hurt, and he'd also be insanely faster than the flash as well. the AM is lucky he didnt have to fight the 60s superman..cuz if flash can make him hurt, PC supes would of torn him the F apart, badly.

[Buried Alien]

He isnt only the level of the uber PC 60s superman, because if he was then he would be beyond the flashes capacity to hurt, and he'd also be insanely faster than the flash as well.

Even at the height of his powers during the 1960s, Superman wasn't necessarily faster than the Flash. Earth-One Superman and Barry Allen Flash raced each other several times during the 1960s, and the result was always a draw (and no, neither Superman nor Flash went easy on the other).



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[marshal99]

Maybe Darkseid who i believe is still imprisoned in the source wall following that godawful superman/batman "supergirl" arc is still controlling Alex and that with the energies caused by the splitting of the multiverse , Darkseid will be set free from the wall ?

[Just_A_Rat]

Back in the Grant Morrison run of JLA, we were introduced to the concept of the "Infinite Mass" punch that Flash (Wally) could pull off. This enabled Wally to punch a White Martian (with strength and durability comparable to J'Onn J'Onzz's) into orbit without hurting himself. It's probably the same principle at work.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Yeah... worst idea I have seen in a comic... perhaps ever. I prefer when they just ignore the laws of physics altogether. Near-infinite mass without equally near-infinite volume = Black Hole level density and gravitational effects (only nastier - black holes do not have anything close to near-infinite mass, however, there volume may be less than Wally's. At any rate, it is a fair comparison). Black hole on earth = no more earth. Nice work Wally. His aura might prevent this from happening, but then it should also prevent him from punching anyone with that mass, unless his every footstep is obliterating the earth. Man, that drove me nuts. As I said, I hate when they try to bring Physics into a comic, but only do it half-way. Better to just leave the whole thing out.

[PatrickG]

Maybe Darkseid who i believe is still imprisoned in the source wall following that godawful superman/batman "supergirl" arc is still controlling Alex and that with the energies caused by the splitting of the multiverse , Darkseid will be set free from the wall ?

Actually, the current SUPERMAN/BATMAN arc is revisiting Darkseid's imprisonment and everything else that's happened in the book so far. There's been a hidden story behind everything that hapened. And it takes place pre-IC.

[MythicBrawn]

I get the impression that Superboy is even more powerful in the post-CoIE universe. He made mention to Alex about how powerful the yellow sun made him. At pre-crisis levels he was extremely powerful and with his declaration, it seems he was even more powerful. If I had to rate them it would be:
1. Superboy Prime
2. E-2 Superman
3. E-1 Superman
4. E-1 Superboy

This theory may not hold water since post-Crisis Krypto was able to draw blood when he bit Superboy Prime.

[Mbast1]

If I had to rate them it would be:
1. Superboy Prime
2. E-2 Superman
3. E-1 Superman
4. E-1 Superboy

Earth-1 Superman has almost always been shown to be much more powerful than Earth-2. (I think in the first appearance or two together, they were even, but after that they were distinguished)

[Buried Alien]

Earth-1 Superman has almost always been shown to be much more powerful than Earth-2. (I think in the first appearance or two together, they were even, but after that they were distinguished)

By the time of COIE, they were equally powerful, but because of his relative youth, the Earth-One Superman had much greater stamina and endurance.

NOTE: The Earth-One Superman should *not* be confused with the present day Superman. They have many similarities, but they are not the same.

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[PatrickG]

According to Dan Didio, the present day Superman IS the Earth-1 Superman.

[PatrickG]

Yeah... worst idea I have seen in a comic... perhaps ever. I prefer when they just ignore the laws of physics altogether. Near-infinite mass without equally near-infinite volume = Black Hole level density and gravitational effects (only nastier - black holes do not have anything close to near-infinite mass, however, there volume may be less than Wally's. At any rate, it is a fair comparison). Black hole on earth = no more earth. Nice work Wally. His aura might prevent this from happening, but then it should also prevent him from punching anyone with that mass, unless his every footstep is obliterating the earth. Man, that drove me nuts. As I said, I hate when they try to bring Physics into a comic, but only do it half-way. Better to just leave the whole thing out.

Actually, if all goes well, we're slated to have controlled, manmade black holes on earth by 2007 sometime.

And according to the January 2006 Popular Science:

Tiny black holes (that we could produce) wouldn’t last long enough to consume any matter before they blinked out of existence

[Buried Alien]

According to Dan Didio, the present day Superman IS the Earth-1 Superman.

Dan Didio has also said that during this year of INFINITE CRISIS/52/ONE YEAR LATER, we must take everything he says with a grain of salt. :)

And I do here. There are simply too many differences between the Pre-COIE Earth-One Superman of the Silver/Bronze Age and the current Superman dating from 1986 to identify them as the *same* character. Significantly similar, yes, but definitely not the same.

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[Just_A_Rat]

Actually, if all goes well, we're slated to have controlled, manmade black holes on earth by 2007 sometime.

Yeah, I have that issue too. It was a good one, with some really interesting stuff. Of course, thre was no "control" on Wally, and that goes back to my point that I was just using a black hole as a scaled-down version of "near-infinite" mass. Near-infinite mass. So, not just one super-condensed star, but ALL of them. All the mass in the universe, in a point the size of Wally. The gravitational effects are... well, I don't know how to plug "near-infinite" into an equation, but I could plug in big enough numbers to have people "falling" towards Wally at sufficient speed to make him the greatest mass murderer in the history of the world. And that doesn't even come close to "infinite."

[marshal99]

By the time of COIE, they were equally powerful, but because of his relative youth, the Earth-One Superman had much greater stamina and endurance.


When was it ever shown that in COIE that both supermen were equally powerful ?! It was shown several times prior to crisis that Superman of Earth 2 were weaker and not as powerful as his earth 1 counterpart.

[Mulett]

When was it ever shown that in COIE that both supermen were equally powerful ?! It was shown several times prior to crisis that Superman of Earth 2 were weaker and not as powerful as his earth 1 counterpart.

I'm not sure this is the case. Certainly, it was mentioned that the Earth-2 Superman developed his powers more slowly. I remember this with particular reference to Power Girl, who didn't have all her super powers during her earlier appearances. It was stated that "like her cousin Superman (of Earth-2)" her powers developed slowly, over a period of years. For instance, she couldn't fly to begin with and had to jump from place to place whilst she waited for her flying power to develop (unlike Supergirl who had all her powers from day one). The same had been the case, apparantly, for the E2 Superman.

But I don't remember it ever being stated that E1 Supes was more powerful - in fact, in the 1974 JLA/JSA team up E1 Superman clearly states that E2 Superman is as powerful as he (they are fighting at the time). So I guess it just depends on which writer was involved and what the storyline was.

[Buried Alien]

When was it ever shown that in COIE that both supermen were equally powerful ?! It was shown several times prior to crisis that Superman of Earth 2 were weaker and not as powerful as his earth 1 counterpart.

You need to go back to JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA # 74 (1969), the first-ever meeting between the Earth-One and Earth-Two Supermen. Manipulated by the villain Aquarius, the two Supermen fought each other to the point that both of them dropped from exhaustion. At this point in DC history (the late Silver Age), the two Supermen were depicted as identical in every way (Kal-L was not shown to be older than Kal-El).

By 1985 and CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, writers and illustrators had gotten into the practice of depicting Kal-L as decades older than Kal-El. Due to his advanced age, Kal-L did not have Kal-El's stamina or endurance, but both Supermen were still on the same scale of power.

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[DDM]

You need to go back to JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA # 74 (1969), the first-ever meeting between the Earth-One and Earth-Two Supermen. Manipulated by the villain Aquarius, the two Supermen fought each other to the point that both of them dropped from exhaustion. At this point in DC history (the late Silver Age), the two Supermen were depicted as identical in every way (Kal-L was not shown to be older than Kal-El).

By 1985 and CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, writers and illustrators had gotten into the practice of depicting Kal-L as decades older than Kal-El. Due to his advanced age, Kal-L did not have Kal-El's stamina or endurance, but both Supermen were still on the same scale of power.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

The Earth-2 Superman first appears with his grey hair with the revival of the Justice Society of America in the 70's with All-Star Comics #58-75. From this point, Kal-L always appeared older than the Earth-1 Superman.

[Oggar]

Just trying to dust off my foggy memory so... Earth Prime and Earth-1 are different? I had all this crap straight once then they told me I'd never need it again... filthy lying so and so's.

[Buried Alien]

Just trying to dust off my foggy memory so... Earth Prime and Earth-1 are different? I had all this crap straight once then they told me I'd never need it again... filthy lying so and so's.

Yes. Earth-One was the main Silver/Bronze Age DC Earth from the 1950s until 1985. This was the world of the Justice League of America and the Teen Titans.

Earth-Prime was first depicted during the late 1960s as a world where there were no superheroes...only comic book stories about fictional superheroes (like the real world). For years, Earth-Prime was actually considered to be the real world...until a superhero named Ultraa showed up and later, the Earth-Prime Superboy.


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[marshal99]

You need to go back to JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA # 74 (1969), the first-ever meeting between the Earth-One and Earth-Two Supermen. Manipulated by the villain Aquarius, the two Supermen fought each other to the point that both of them dropped from exhaustion. At this point in DC history (the late Silver Age), the two Supermen were depicted as identical in every way (Kal-L was not shown to be older than Kal-El).

By 1985 and CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, writers and illustrators had gotten into the practice of depicting Kal-L as decades older than Kal-El. Due to his advanced age, Kal-L did not have Kal-El's stamina or endurance, but both Supermen were still on the same scale of power.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yes , and if you noticed in the JLA issue 74 , the E2 superman's logo were the same as E1. Since then , they have changed the logo AND the depiction of how older E2 superman have looked as well as the power level between the 2 supermen.
If you read All star squadron , it states it quite clearly in a footnote that E2 superman were less powerful and more vulnerable than his E1 counterpart when a simple rocket shell knocked him for a loop. Of course, in a later all star squadron issue , he got knocked out by Captain Marvel who has always been pretty much equal with E1 superman.
Also , in that DC presents annual where Sivana stole the powers of Shazam for himself , he took on the E2 superman and used him as a warm up before taking on E1 superman and told E2 superman that his powers is already on the wane and weak because of his age.
Of course, even a weaker version of earth 1 superman would still be damn powerful.

[Buried Alien]

If you read All star squadron , it states it quite clearly in a footnote that E2 superman were less powerful and more vulnerable than his E1 counterpart when a simple rocket shell knocked him for a loop. Of course, in a later all star squadron issue , he got knocked out by Captain Marvel who has always been pretty much equal with E1 superman.

The ALL-STAR SQUADRON stories, however, took place during the 1940s on Earth-Two, when Kal-L was indeed much weaker than the Earth-One Superman and might even have been weaker than the Post-COIE Superman of today. That would change as Earth-Two progressed into the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, however.

Also , in that DC presents annual where Sivana stole the powers of Shazam for himself , he took on the E2 superman and used him as a warm up before taking on E1 superman and told E2 superman that his powers is already on the wane and weak because of his age.

Right, but Kal-L wasn't shown as being incapable of any feat that Earth-One's Kal-El was capable of...only that Kal-L couldn't keep it up as long because he was older. By comparison, the Post-COIE Superman couldn't hope to match the feats of either of his Pre-COIE counterparts. That's what I mean by the Pre-COIE Supermen of Earth-One and Earth-Two being on the same scale.


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[jwd]

According to Dan Didio, the present day Superman IS the Earth-1 Superman.

Do you have a link to the place he said that?


While the present day heroes like Superman and Batman might of been the E1 Superheroes they went through a lot of changes and aren't the same since the multiverse ended.

Superman had been depowered a lot. The Kents are still alive. He was a football star at his high school.

So if the multiverse does return would that mean the present day Earth will revert back to its Earth-1 history or will there be a present day Earth and an Earth-1 (and Earth-2, 3, C, Z, X, Giberish, crazy, allbatty, and on and on, etc) ?

[Apathy Boy]

When was it ever shown that in COIE that both supermen were equally powerful ?! It was shown several times prior to crisis that Superman of Earth 2 were weaker and not as powerful as his earth 1 counterpart.I haven't read the original CRISIS in a really long time, but didn't it end with Kal-L punching out Kal-El so he could face the Anti-Monitor alone?

My opinion is that Earth-1 Superman was slightly more powerful, but Kal-L was more of an ass-kicker in attitude.

[chicagokmc]

based on my understanding, i rate them on the following scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most powerful):

10 - Earth Prime Superboy (as shown in Infinite Crisis)
9 - Pre-crisis Earth 1 Superman
8.5 - Pre-crisis Earth 2 Superman (would be a 9, but scaled down for age)
7 - Present day, post-crisis Superman (appears in current supes books)
5 - Present day, Superboy Kon-El

all of these characters are extremely powerful, so a 5 for Kon-El isn't a slight. it's just that, relatively speaking, he isn't as powerful as the others.

[Rik Levins]

Well, I don't know that Superboy Prime is MORE powerful than Pre-C Superman. I would think that the latter would be actually stronger, for the same reason that a 30-year-old, 220 lb man would be stronger than--well, the same guy, as a 160-lb sixteen-year-old.
It's been established that SP is immune to red-sun radiation, so he's more powerful in that respect, but I don't think that means he's actually stronger.

The rest of your chart seems right on, though.

[chicagokmc]

Well, I don't know that Superboy Prime is MORE powerful than Pre-C Superman. I would think that the latter would be actually stronger, for the same reason that a 30-year-old, 220 lb man would be stronger than--well, the same guy, as a 160-lb sixteen-year-old.
It's been established that SP is immune to red-sun radiation, so he's more powerful in that respect, but I don't think that means he's actually stronger.

The rest of your chart seems right on, though.

i agree with the boy vs man part. but it seems that superboy prime, who was actually powered by a comet (not a sun) is getting a boost from the earth's yellow sun. at least that is what he has said so far in IC. that's why i had him slightly higher.

i guess we have to see what that means. as others have noted, superboy prime should not have his power influenced by a sun - let me rephrase: no previous mention had been made of superboy primes's power being influenced by a sun.

[Buried Alien]

And Anti-Monitor could make pre-Crisis Superman bleed.

According to COIE, this is only true if the battle takes place in the Antimatter Universe of Qward. If the battle takes place in one of the positive matter universes (especially in Kal-El's native Earth-One universe), then the Anti-Monitor cannot kill him without the benefit of Kryptonite, red solar radiation, magic, or (since it's the Anti-Monitor) an all-annihilating wave of white antimatter energy. Had Supergirl fought the Anti-Monitor in the universe of Earth-One instead of in Qward, she might have survived.


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[aeastwic]

I think it's impossible to tell who is more powerful...Earth-2 Superman or Superboy Prime.

They come from different universes and there should be some kind of difference between them. Superboy Prime is getting some kind of boost from the current universe's Sun also.

Earth-2 Superman could probably kick current Superman's butt around the block since he is still a pre-Crisis kind of guy.