Superman = Jewish?

[HomerJay]

I actually wrote a paper in college about this very topic. This is from HollywoodJesus.com and breaks it down rather nicely:

Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, both Jewish, invented Superman in the late 1930's as a typically Jewish mythical hero. Jews were being oppressed by Adolph Hitler at that time and Superman or Super-Jew was their answer to Hitler. The "S" on Superman's shirt also stands for the last names of his creators. Superman comes from the planet Krypton -which sounds like "Tikkum olam" a Hebrew concept of restoring the world's wrongs. Joanne, the wife of the late Jerry Siegel, says she had often heard about the Jewish connection to Superman. Jerry Siegel is listed in the book Jewish 100 as one of the 100 most influential Jews of all time. He is listed along with Moses, Henry Kissinger and Steven Spielberg.

The Jerusalem Post quotes Daniel Schifrin of the US National Federation for Jewish Culture as saying, "The older I got the more I saw there was something profoundly Jewish about Superman, that he was one of us." He further states, "Like Clark Kent we've been Diaspora Jews for so long, being viewed as timid and bookish when underneath there are fierce Hebrew warriors doing God's work."

The 1978 movie was an 80 million dollar blockbuster - a phenomenon in its day. It was written by Mario Puzo (The Godfather) and David Newman (Shena) and, of course, based on the comic book series by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.

The movie Superman essentially retells the life of Jesus Christ -the ultimate Super Jew. Richard Donner, the director of Superman, had just completed filming The Omen (1976) which was a film about the Antichrist.

When Superman was released in Communist China in 1985 the Worker's Daily called Superman "a brave hero of incomparable strength who clearly distinguishes what to love and hate and culls strength from weakness." Sounds very Christ-like to me.

The story begins on the planet Krypton, which is now destined for destruction. There are also three criminals who are tried and found guilty by the ruling elders and are cast out from the planet.
There is similarity here with the unholy trinity of Revelation: the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet (Rev. 16:13). Also note the similarity in "the casting out of Satan from heaven" (Luke 10:18).

Before the tragic end of the planet, baby Kal-El, is sent to earth to escape the approaching doom. Kal-El is part of a family of three (trinity): Jor-El (played by Marlon Brando, the God Father himself), the mother (Virgin Mary/Holy Spirit), and baby Kal-El (Jesus). It is interesting to note that the Hebrew word for God is EL and both Superman and his father have EL in their names. In the comic books "Kal-El" is Kryptonian for "Star Child" -which ties into the Child of the Christmas Star.

In the above scene Jor-El blesses his son with words that sound very Biblical: "We will never leave you...All that I have, I bequeath you, my son...You'll carry me inside you all the days of your life...the son becomes the father, and the father the...the son."

The birth of Christ was announced by a special star (Matthew 2:2) and so it was with Superman. Christ was Virgin born (Matthew 1:23). Superman has no earthly father. Superman is "virgin-born" out of a womb-like cave (stable) created by the "birth-star" space ship. (The womb-cave is a concept of writer David Newman. He used this image in Shena when she emerged as the savior of Africa from a womb-like cave.)

Superman, like Christ, is both human and divine. He is "God with us" (Matthew 1:23). He has both a human family and a heavenly origin. He is Clark Kent/Superman.

There is no mention of the death of Jesus' stepfather in the Bible. However, scholars agree that Joseph probably died when Jesus was a youth because we have no mention of him in the later years. Jesus is referred to as Mary's Son, rather than Joseph's son, probably because Mary was a widow. (Mark 6:3)

Before Jesus entered his ministry he went into the wilderness for solitude (Mark 1:12-13). It was the beginning of his journey.

1. Following the solitude experience, Superman, as did Jesus, begins performing super-human miracles. Many connections to Christ.

2. Superman works with writers at the Daily Planet newspaper. Jesus, also, associated with Matthew and John the Good News (Gospel) writers.

3. The flight in sky with Lois Lane is a take off on Peter's walk on water (Matthew 14:28-29). Both Peter and Lois slip downward.

Superman has an enemy, Lex Luthor, (sounds like: Lucifer) who lives underground -the mistaken traditional location of Satan. Lex Luthor presents to Superman a worldly kingdom. This is similar to Satan's temptation of Christ with a worldly kingdom (Matthew 4:8-10).

Jesus died on a cross. Today believers wear crosses around their necks. And so it was in Superman, except the cross around Superman's neck was Kryptonite.

Following his crucifixion on the cross, Jesus was placed in a tomb. Water baptism is a symbol of Christ's burial (Romans 6:4). Superman was placed in a watery grave. Superman experiences a resurrection that is witnessed by Eve Teschmacher. Eve is a woman with a fallen nature much like Mary Magdalene who witnessed Jesus' resurrection. Eve is also the Bible name of the first woman. Jesus is called the second Adam in the Bible.

The Apostle's Creed states Jesus descended into Hades following the cross. Superman also descends into the underground hell-fires. The Gospel of Matthew mentions the earthquakes that happened with the death of Christ (Matthew 27:54). Matthew's account also mentions people who were raised to life out of tombs (Matthew 27:51-53). In Superman Lois Lane dies in her tomb-car and is resurrected by Superman.

In order to raise Lois Lane from her tomb, Superman has to alter time, which he accomplishes by spinning around the earth reversing the rotation of the earth. He succeeds in reversing time. Time is measured BC and AD. Christ altered time too.

Superman delivers Lex Luthor and his cohorts to prison. The Bible says that, "God disarmed the evil rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross of Christ" (Colossians 2:15).


Like Jesus, like Superman
Luke 24:50-53
"Then Jesus led them to Bethany, and lifting his hands to heaven, he blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up to heaven. They worshiped him and then returned to Jerusalem filled with great joy. And they spent all of their time in the Temple, praising God."

[JulianPerez]

Elliot S! Maggin, maybe one of the people that got Superman best, once said in an interview that he thought that while Superman was a type of cosmic monotheist, Lex Luthor is a Jew that doesn't practice. Which makes sense; Luthor was always at his best when he had this wonderful, very Sid Caesar/Mel Brooks-esque sense of humor.

However, I would say that Superman is not Jewish, not is the influence of the title particularly semitic. True, the creators of Superman were Jewish, as was Julie Schwartz, Elliot S! Maggin, and possibly Kurt Schaffenberger and Otto Binder. However, the influence of their Jewishness on Superman is negligible. Superman would be different if he was created by, say, Italian immigrants, but not TOO different.

Contrast that to how Semitic in tone Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT is.

[StoneGold]

Honestly, some of the Christ metaphors they're using in the article are a little forced. Christ died on a cross. Christians wear crosses around their neck. Once, Superman was forced to wear a necklace with Kryptonite on it. Therefore, Superman is Jesus.

The real thing you have to remember... Superman when? When Siegal was writing and Schuster was doing the artwork? After the got screwed over, and Weisenger was having writers make Superman constantly emotionally torment Lois, Lana and Jimmy? The movie, which came out some 40 years after the character was created?

Read the early issues, Superman was ass-kicking Jerry Siegal in a cape. Siegal got brought up with a strong Jewish socialist upbringing in Cleveland. Read those early issues, and you've got Superman dismantling the industrial war complex, shutting down Hitler, rescuing abused wives, etc. That early Superman, by virtue of basically being Jerry, was Jewish. Mort's version, somewhat less so.

[Wannabe]

I think Clark Kentberg has a nice ring to it.

[Typo Lad]

Ahhh this old chestnut.

He's a non-practicing Roaite, actually.

[Agentum]

I think people think to much of this, I don't think they intended him that way at all.
Why should they mix up Superman with religios beliefs?

Just because you happen to be a jew doesn't mean you have to shape everything after your religion.

[Tom]

They're using the Donner film to make their point, but Puzo, Donner, Newman and Mankiewicz deliberately played up the Messianic angle in a way that was only ocassionally hinted at in the comics. If he wants to say the Donner Superman is Jewish, that's fine. But this article is a poor source for making the claim that comicbook Superman is Jewish.

[Typo Lad]

Just because you happen to be a jew doesn't mean you have to shape everything after your religion.

Speaking as a Jew, I agree.

Now, if you want to say the concept of the Secret Identity is very much shaped by the daily life of the Depression Era Jew, yeah, I'll buy that. But beyond that?

Naaaah.

[Tom]

But Siegel and Schuster didn't invent the concept of the secret identity.

[Typo Lad]

But Siegel and Schuster didn't invent the concept of the secret identity.

I was talking about the Secret Identity as used in comics, but not as used in Superman.

And yes, I know it predates comics too.

Oh just forget I said anything.

[Mia]

I think people think to much of this, I don't think they intended him that way at all.
Why should they mix up Superman with religios beliefs?

Just because you happen to be a jew doesn't mean you have to shape everything after your religion.

Being Jewish is more than just a religion. It's also a cultural and ethnic group. Jews are a people. Being that the two creators were Jewish it wouldn't be out of the norm for them to bring their background and life experiences and interject it into the character.

By the way in his novel "It's Superman!" Tom DeHaven writes Clark as an athiest.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0811844358/qid=1137767636/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-9820334-0841458?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[HomerJay]

They're using the Donner film to make their point, but Puzo, Donner, Newman and Mankiewicz deliberately played up the Messianic angle in a way that was only ocassionally hinted at in the comics. If he wants to say the Donner Superman is Jewish, that's fine. But this article is a poor source for making the claim that comicbook Superman is Jewish.
The movie is very explicit with the parallels (& magnifying them) while still being relatively faithful to the source material. I just posted this to show that there are numerous obvious examples that show those parallels between Superman & Christ. Just to promote discussion of something other than politics or post-a-picture-of-a-hot-chick.

I'm surprised that the author didn't also make the connection of Moses being sent down the river in a basket vs. Superman being sent across space in a ship.

[Shellhead]

When I was in grade school, I got one of my jewish friends hooked on comics, and he turned into a very serious collector. His two favorite heroes were Superman and Namor, because "they look jewish."

[Agentum]

Do they?, they dont even look the same to me.

[Super Macho Man]

Wait...I remember his parents raising him up to be Catholic.

[Pariah128]

Try to feed him a ham sandwich and see what happens, then we'll know for sure.

[LordEd1976]

In the Superman Wedding Album a minister officiated the wedding ceremony between Clark and Lois. When the Earth-2 Superman got remarried to Lois they did their vows in the Kryptonian way. I can't remember though how they got married the first time.

[Shellhead]

Do they?, they dont even look the same to me.

True, but jewish people are not clones. I grew up in a neighborhood near the local synagogue, and there were all kinds of jewish people. Some fit in with popular stereotypes and others looked nothing like you would expect. One of my roommates back in '90-91 was a tall, burly, blue collar kind of guy named Hank who happened to be jewish. He owned a motorcycle and a Mustang, and he liked to smoke pot.

[mohammedali]

If Clark Kent was given a religion, I would guess he's Christian. There is nothing that I can see that makes him seem anything like a jew.

[Shellhead]

If Clark Kent was given a religion, I would guess he's Christian. There is nothing that I can see that makes him seem anything like a jew.

Hair color? Exile from his homeland? (Remember, Superman was created before WWII) However, since he was raised by the Kents, I would agree that Superman is definitely a christian.

[HomerJay]

True, but jewish people are not clones. I grew up in a neighborhood near the local synagogue, and there were all kinds of jewish people. Some fit in with popular stereotypes and others looked nothing like you would expect.
Exhibit A:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/HomerJay64/20050714-woodyallen.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/HomerJay64/bill_goldberg.jpg
Both Jews...

[HomerJay]

If Clark Kent was given a religion, I would guess he's Christian. There is nothing that I can see that makes him seem anything like a jew.
Ok folks, I think we're taking things a bit too literally/seriously here. The purpose of this thread was to point out Superman's Jewish origins & similarities, not to debate his religion as portrayed in the comics.

[Super Monkey]

Try to feed him a ham sandwich and see what happens, then we'll know for sure.

That's a stereotype, I know many Jews that love pork! Just like there are many types of Christians they are also many types of Jews.

[Typo Lad]

That's a stereotype, I know many Jews that love pork! Just like there are many types of Christians they are also many types of Jews.

Woah, woah.

I agree with your second point, but not your first.

It's not a "stereotype".

There are a large amount of Jews who will not eat Pork. It's not because pork is icky, it's because we keep the laws of Kashrut and pig is forbidden.

Stereotyping would be "Ask Superman to do your taxes" or "drop a penny and watch him dive for it at super-speed" or even "Do he and Lois have intercourse via a hole in a sheet?"

The eschewing of Pork is real. Yes, there are Jews who don't follow it. Yes, they are still Jews. Yes, it's not a very good way to judge if someone is Jewish... but it's not a "stereotype".

[Super Monkey]

Woah, woah.

I agree with your second point, but not your first.

It's not a "stereotype".

There are a large amount of Jews who will not eat Pork. It's not because pork is icky, it's because we keep the laws of Kashrut and pig is forbidden.

Stereotyping would be "Ask Superman to do your taxes" or "drop a penny and watch him dive for it at super-speed" or even "Do he and Lois have intercourse via a hole in a sheet?"

The eschewing of Pork is real. Yes, there are Jews who don't follow it. Yes, they are still Jews. Yes, it's not a very good way to judge if someone is Jewish... but it's not a "stereotype".

Many stereotypes are based on reality, however it becomes a stereotype when people start to assume it goes for ALL Jews.

It's like saying all hispanics in California are Mexicans. This stereotype is base on reality since most of them are Mexicans, however it is still a stereotype since not all of them are.

[Dr. Killbydeath]

Saying that all RELIGIOUS Jews don't eat meat is not a stereotype. It's like saying all religious Catholics go to confessionals.

[Typo Lad]

Clearly, we are using two different definitions.



ster·e·o·type (str--tp, stîr-)
n.

1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.

You're using 1 and I'm using 2.

That said, the fact is if Superman were Ethnically Jewish (by adoption, obviously), he could potentially still eat Pork, yeah. If he were Religiously Jewish, on the other hand, it would depend on the denomination, etc.

That said, the posted who made that comment was making a joke and we're kind of disecting it and being a bit over the top.

[The Batman]

there's a lot about Superman that can be seen as metaphor for the Jewish experience and in a broader way the immigrant experience. the exodus from his homeland, changing his name to better fit in with the customs of his adopted home, and gaining strength from his special heritage are all themes that come be seen in the prototypical early 20th century Jewish/immigrant experience. it's not all too surprising given that Superman's creators were i believe the children of jewish immigrants and is argued to be one of the reasons that Superman proved to resonate with people when he first appeared.

[Typo Lad]

Saying that all RELIGIOUS Jews don't eat meat is not a stereotype. It's like saying all religious Catholics go to confessionals.

Except Catholics are a denomination of a larger religion. It would be more like saying "All Christians go to Confessional" which would be innacurate, yes.

Better "If Superman were an Orthodox, Sephardic, Traditional, or from some school of Conservative Judiasm, he would not eat Pork"

And Jews eat meat. Just not pig.

Or any land-animal that does not have split hooves and a four-chambered stomach.

[Typo Lad]

Did I post a link to this yet?

http://comicfacts.blogspot.com/

My article on the recent issue of Action featuring Superman going to someone's house for Shabbos dinner.

[Super Monkey]

And Jews eat meat. Just not pig.

BTW, my Jewish friends who ate pork where from Israel.

[Typo Lad]

BTW, my Jewish friends who ate pork where from Israel.

"were".

And good for them man. You know there's a very large non-religious community there, right?

[Lubichev]

Superman is a Wiccan. Everyone knows that.

[Typo Lad]

I'll tell you what he's not.

A Christian.

Evidence, you ask?

http://luchins.com/dickery/WF286_desecrate.JPG

http://luchins.com/dickery/WF286cross.JPG

[Super Monkey]

"were".

And good for them man. You know there's a very large non-religious community there, right?

oops, I was typing too fast, which not a good idea when you can't type very well to begin with.

I know this, since every Israeli I have ever met have been quite secular, but they still consider themselves to be Jewish.

Anyway, the point is that all stereotypes are bad even if they are not degrading and hateful, I mean you wouldn't want anyone to just assume a whole lot about you before they ever got to know you right?

[Lubichev]

Actually, he's a frigging alien. I don't think he subscribes to any religion. He's see too many things out there in the universes to believe that "God is in control."

[ducklord]

Within continuity? Rao only knows.

Symbolically? I always kinda think of the pre-Crisis Superman as being a Moses allegory (with some Christ elements thrown in), while the post-Crisis Superman has been much more of a Christ allegory...at least until recently.

Consider:

Pre-Crisis Superman:
-- Explicitly born on Krypton, placed in his space basket, and sent down the river to his adoptive family.
-- For all its tech, Kryptonians are a lot like Terrans.
-- Strong connection to Kryptonian (Jewish) heritage and rituals.
-- Many living Kryptonians (Supergirl, Phantom Zone Criminals, the Bottle City of Kandor), but he's their leader.
-- Cover blurb on the issue in which he enlarges the Bottle City? "Let My People Grow"
-- Like Moses, doesn't get to live in promised land with Kandorians.

Post-Crisis (until recently):
-- Explicitly born on Earth, and a quasi-virgin birth at that, as no uglies were bumped in the production of post-Crisis Kal-El.
-- Krypton is unknowably alien.
-- Significant downplaying of Kryptonian heritage. Post-Crisis Superman thinks of himself as a human first, Kryptonian second.
-- The whole death and resurrection thing.
-- What's the theme song of the post-Crisis influenced Smallville? "Save Me." Heck, they pretty much slapped Welling on a cross in the first episode.
-- Until recently, the post-Crisis Superman was all about being "The Last/Only Son of Krypton," a la "The Only Son of God."
-- Where the pre-Crisis Superman had an entire tribe of fellow Kryptonians, it could be argued that the post-Crisis Superman has apostles (Steel, Superboy, Eradicator, the non-Kryptonian Supergirl, etc.)

It's a pretty loose theory, but it almost works...especially if you're a little drunk.

Mike.

[thik_3rd]

he was wearing a yamaka in the last issue of action. so yes.

[Agentum]

Actually, he's a frigging alien. I don't think he subscribes to any religion. He's see too many things out there in the universes to believe that "God is in control."
Yes, real religion is not needed in superherocomics anyway, we have problems enogh with fanatics in the real world to start to argue if Superman is a Jew or not.

But then again i come from a country where most people don't believe in a god.

[Typo Lad]

Yes, real religion is not needed in superherocomics anyway, we have problems enogh with fanatics in the real world to start to argue if Superman is a Jew or not.

But then again i come from a country where most people don't believe in a god.

See, the reason it would be nice to see some religious people in comic books is because then we could see some non-fanatical ones.

Not saying we should cludge it on to Superman, but I always liked the religious angles to Nightcrawler and Daredevil.

Does Ragman still have his Kabbalistic origin?

[HomerJay]

Yes, real religion is not needed in superherocomics anyway, we have problems enogh with fanatics in the real world to start to argue if Superman is a Jew or not.

But then again i come from a country where most people don't believe in a god.
Lighten up, Francis.
See post #22 in this thread.

[Sir Tim Drake]

In the Superman Wedding Album a minister officiated the wedding ceremony between Clark and Lois. When the Earth-2 Superman got remarried to Lois they did their vows in the Kryptonian way. I can't remember though how they got married the first time.

But it was actually a Jewish minister, since his appearance was based on Jerry Siegel.

Another little-known parallel is that Jesus attended a wedding at Cana, while Superman attended the wedding of Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad (I think).

[Mia]

BTW, my Jewish friends who ate pork where from Israel.


Years ago I read an interview with an Israeli model and she said she considered ham sandwiches to be the "best invention of the 20th century". It made me laugh. She admitted that she wasn't an observant Jew.

[Mia]

Yes, real religion is not needed in superherocomics anyway, we have problems enogh with fanatics in the real world to start to argue if Superman is a Jew or not.

But then again i come from a country where most people don't believe in a god.


Wow! The land of ABBA is godless. I had no idea!

[Citizen V]

That information was quite compelling,as someone who knows about comics and religion.That puts up a rather good argument,or rather..to prove a point.Two facts that stood out to me was the "S" perhaps a hidden meaning,and the "EL".

But if this was true,why is this information not public knowlage?Why does Superman fans not know this?It is very interesting indeed.

[HomerJay]

But if this was true,why is this information not public knowlage?Why does Superman fans not know this?It is very interesting indeed.
Exactly why I posted it.
It's all fairly obvious too, once you stop to think about it.

[KHShapiro]

Actually, he's a frigging alien. I don't think he subscribes to any religion. He's see too many things out there in the universes to believe that "God is in control."

Dude that is the smartest thing anyone has written yet so far in this thread..

And It not offical until Adam Sandler Claims Superman as a Jew...

BTW i am Jewish, i do practice and eat pork!

[SuperManny]

Actually, he's a frigging alien. I don't think he subscribes to any religion. He's see too many things out there in the universes to believe that "God is in control."

Dude that is the smartest thing anyone has written yet so far in this thread..

I don't see how the things he sees out in the universe dictate if there's a God or not.

"The Presence" or "Higher Authority" is referred to regularly in DC comic books....

[The Batman]

Actually, he's a frigging alien. I don't think he subscribes to any religion. He's see too many things out there in the universes to believe that "God is in control."

or perhaps the wonders of the universe only help to affirm his belief in some higher power?

[KHShapiro]

This is more about Superman being Jewish, which in my veiwing of what Lubichev said is that Although Superman believes in a god he isnt on one side of the fence or another.

For Someone to start a thread and try to tie superman to any religion, well that just seems like they want to start something more than a debate.
It is IMO, Part of the universal appeal of superman or most other super hero's is that they can fit just about everywhere or anywhere the reader wants them to be. Why does it matter what Superman is or isn't. If you need a reason like Religion to decide if you like a hero or not, you need help.
So what if the creators of Superman happen to be Jewish why does it matter?

[The Batman]

^^^^

obviously, DC isn't going to tie Superman or Batman or any of their other big guns too closely to any specific religion as a matter of policy. it avoids controversy and the potential alienation of some segment of the readership. these characters are in a judeo-christian mold though but that seems to be more a result of being products of the Western world than anything else. Superman's origin story being a metaphor for the Jewish or immigrant experience is something that's a little bit more subtle and under the surface, i don't know if it's something that Siegel and Shuster were consciouse of when creating the character but it's certainly there and adds an extra layer of depth to the character.

[Lanowar]

Just because the creators of a character are jewish does'nt mean that everyone they create are. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are Jewish and to my knowledge only one of there superheroes actually showed there religion and that was The Thing.

But Superman I think he is but most people say he's more like a god on earth then an follower of one.

Hitler used to call the Superman comics 'Superjew' and we all know what happened to him...

[Loren]

Elliot S! Maggin, maybe one of the people that got Superman best, once said in an interview that he thought that while Superman was a type of cosmic monotheist, Lex Luthor is a Jew that doesn't practice.

He also said that Clark is a Methodist (although I don't much care for the notion that Clark is one religion and Superman another). Maggin's interview (http://www.fanzing.com/mag/fanzing09/iview.shtml):

I give all my characters religions. I think I always have. It's part of the backstory. It's part of the process of getting to know a character well enough to write about him or her. Jimmy Olson is Lutheran. Lois is Catholic. Perry is Baptist. Luthor is Jewish (though non-observant, thank heaven). Bruce and Batman are both Episcopalian and I said so in the text though it was edited out erroneously. Clark – like the Kents – is Methodist. Superman is something else, but I never did buy all that Kryptonian "Great Rao" nonsense. I do think Superman essentially adheres to a kind of interplanetary-oriented Kryptonian-based belief system centered on monotheistic philosophy, and I've got some ideas about it that I haven't yet articulated other than as backstory. I think Superman is too humble to ask for things in prayer, but I think he prays by rote, and constantly, the way some of us talk to ourselves in the shower.

[KHShapiro]

I am not really sure as to why i feel i must respond to these posts but , somehow i do feel i must.

If Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster didnt put Superman or Clark Kent into one religion what gives other Writes the right to choose? None ,but they do anyway because it is there opinion. Does it make it right , no. It seems most of the people that are replying in this thread want to make themsleves feel better by thinking Superman has the same beliefs as they do. Honestly thats great, if thinking Superman has the same beliefs and religion as you do , and it makes you feel better about yourself considering what he stands for then i guess the books have done there jobs. But dont be so small minded and think that this is all there is to it.
But if you want to think of Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster as Supermans Mother and Father, then By Jewish religion Regardless of what anyone else says He is Jewish. I kinda Guess that this is all a bunch of crap since Superman isnt REAL! Is everyone on crazy pills????
How again does the Superman Movie retell the story of Crist???
If ya'll Dont like Jews dont Hide Behind Superman Comics

[Mia]

This is more about Superman being Jewish, which in my veiwing of what Lubichev said is that Although Superman believes in a god he isnt on one side of the fence or another.

For Someone to start a thread and try to tie superman to any religion, well that just seems like they want to start something more than a debate.
It is IMO, Part of the universal appeal of superman or most other super hero's is that they can fit just about everywhere or anywhere the reader wants them to be. Why does it matter what Superman is or isn't. If you need a reason like Religion to decide if you like a hero or not, you need help.
So what if the creators of Superman happen to be Jewish why does it matter?

I think you are missing the point of this thread. I don't think that it matters, anymore than does anything else posted on any of the CBR forums. People are just debating and having a discussion. Exchanging ideas. No harm no foul. If it bothers you that much then perhaps you shouldn't visit.

[Mia]

^^^^

obviously, DC isn't going to tie Superman or Batman or any of their other big guns too closely to any specific religion as a matter of policy. it avoids controversy and the potential alienation of some segment of the readership. these characters are in a judeo-christian mold though but that seems to be more a result of being products of the Western world than anything else. Superman's origin story being a metaphor for the Jewish or immigrant experience is something that's a little bit more subtle and under the surface, i don't know if it's something that Siegel and Shuster were consciouse of when creating the character but it's certainly there and adds an extra layer of depth to the character.

I don't think it would make any controversy. I remember reading a thread on this same subject, where the poster mentioned that Superman visisted a Protestant minister during some time of crisis (no I don't mean the Priest in For Tomorrow). And Batman has already admitted to being an atheist. Dr. Mid-Nite is a devout Catholic. Wonderwoman (I believe) is a pagan. I don't see why religion (or lack thereof) wouldn't or couldn't be part and parcel of a character. I think it's great for adding another layer or dimension to the character.

I for one am a Christian and I'm a huge Batman fan (with the tatoo to prove it). Does it bother me that the character is an atheist? Not at all.

As long as the characters religion (or lack thereof) isn't used as a means of sermonising. Or a brand of religion isn't ridiculed---I don't care.

[jaguarshark]

Originally posted by KH Shapiro
How again does the Superman Movie retell the story of Crist???
It's not really that difficult to see how it could be seen that way, and I think most of it was set out in the first few posts.
The comparisons are probably there because Superman is sent from above by a wise and loving father, before being raised by Jonathon and Martha (kinda sorta vaguely like Joseph and Mary, if you choose to see it that way).
The thing that really sets the movie apart, particularly the special edition, is Jor-El. When Jor-El lays out his reasons for sending Kal-El to Earth (which are repeated in the trailer for Returns), he sounds like he is doing Earth a favour by sending us his only son to inspire us to become a better and brighter society, Jesus-style. On the way, Supes is taught all sorts of cool stuff by Jor-El in his little rocket ship. Kal-El is also in contact with Jor-El once he matures into Superman in the movie (at one stage, Supes trains under Jor-El for like seven years in the Fortress of Solitude or something), making the father seem much more all-knowing and omni-present. Also, Superman's powers in the movies seem kinda vague, like spinning the world backwards and the Super-Kiss and the cellaphane S-Shield and stuff, classing him more in that Jesus-mold of being able to do whatever is needed when the moment calls for it, rather than having a strict set of scientific abilities. So yeah, potentially, movie Jor-El=God and movie Supes=Jesus.

[KHShapiro]

I think you are missing the point of this thread. I don't think that it matters, anymore than does anything else posted on any of the CBR forums. People are just debating and having a discussion. Exchanging ideas. No harm no foul. If it bothers you that much then perhaps you shouldn't visit.



No, this IS About Religion, And it does matter. i think you are missing the point.
CBR=COMICE BOOK RESOURCE not the Religious Site to decide on what religion a Comic book Superhero is.

So what is this Debate about huh? if Superman is Jewish?
Or is this about how Superman could not be Jewish and how he has to believe in Jesus,because some writer says so?

If it bothers you that much then perhaps you shouldn't visit.

Don't imply something you know nothing about. And thank you for your sugestion, but i think i'll stay.

It's not really that difficult to see how it could be seen that way, and I think most of it was set out in the first few posts.

Of yeah it makes pefect sense, Thats why everyone believes it.


The comparisons are probably there because Superman is sent from above by a wise and loving father,

Arent we all?


before being raised by Jonathon and Martha (kinda sorta vaguely like Joseph and Mary, if you choose to see it that way).

or like an adopted son by a family that could not have children of there own?


The thing that really sets the movie apart, particularly the special edition, is Jor-El. When Jor-El lays out his reasons for sending Kal-El to Earth (which are repeated in the trailer for Returns), he sounds like he is doing Earth a favour by sending us his only son to inspire us to become a better and brighter society, Jesus-style.

Like any father would want of there children, even if it isnt "Jesus-style"


On the way, Supes is taught all sorts of cool stuff by Jor-El in his little rocket ship.

Once again like any good father would do


Kal-El is also in contact with Jor-El once he matures into Superman in the movie (at one stage, Supes trains under Jor-El for like seven years in the Fortress of Solitude or something), making the father seem much more all-knowing and omni-present.

Dont Forget Jor-El is DEAD and thats a computer made to simulate Jor-El
Kind of like a Tape Recording of a class you could take at a college.. i guess all the teachers seem like they are all knowing , and god like huh.

Super-Kiss and the cellaphane S-Shield and stuff, classing him more in that Jesus-mold of being able to do whatever is needed when the moment calls for it, rather than having a strict set of scientific abilities.

Thanks i almost forgot that part in the bible were Jesus used his Super -Kiss and his Cellaphane J sheild to save the planet from Aliens.


So yeah, potentially, movie Jor-El=God and movie Supes=Jesus.

Soooo who was Supermans bio mother again or did he just appear out of Jor-El's thoughts? i mean since Superman is so Jesus like should Martha Kent have been pregant with him instead of Jor-El's wife?

Face it people, This is a Streching, or it could be even Fishing for some small sense of a connection that Superman has to believe in Jesus.

[KHShapiro]

This thread is titled "Superman = Jewish?"
Could the title have been Superman, what is he? or Superman what Religion is he or a hundred others, yes ofcourse it could have but it wasn't.

Now Why does Superman Have to believe in Jesus or Be Jesus like? Because he does good things and that is why he cant be anything but?

If you really looked i bet you could Tie Superman to alot of other beliefs as well. Reminder: Superman isn't Real.
But i sense this has way more to do with Religion than Superman ,other wise the title and some of the responses would be worded much differently.

[jaguarshark]

KHShapiro, I'm amazed that after going over my post so thoroughly you seem to have totally missed that I wasn't saying I actually agreed with all of that, I was just pointing out how that reading could exist. Nothing you said disproved that that reading is possible.
I think it can be interesting to see Superman as a Christ analogue, and a Moses analogue, and a Greek God or whatever. One of the great things about Superman is that he fits a whole bunch of different readings, without fitting any of them perfectly.

Originally posted by KHShapiro
Thanks i almost forgot that part in the bible were Jesus used his Super -Kiss and his Cellaphane J sheild to save the planet from Aliens.
Again, you're taking it way too literally. Step back, and think of it like this. Jesus could heal the sick, walk on water, do all kinds of cool stuff. But it's not like he did it all the time. Why not? Wouldn't it have helped more people if he was just performing miracles 24/7? The point is, his abilities were kind of vague, and as far as we know from the Bible, just presented themselves when it was convenient. The Lord works in mysterious ways. And I think I speak for all of us when I say that the Super Kiss and the Cellaphane shield in Superman 2 were pretty mysterious.
To me, that "mysterious ways" thing has always been my justification for why Superman isn't at work all the time, making the most of his powers, particularly the more powerful pre-Crisis and movie Supes. It's like, we don't know why he chooses to use his abilites when and how he does, but it's pretty memorable when he does. And that definitely comes through in the movies for me.
As for some of your other comments... No, we are not all sent from a wise and loving father. We are not all "sent from above" in the same sense that Superman is. Our fathers don't all say things like (para-phrasing) "humanity can be a great race, Kal-El. They just need you to guide the way." That sort of stuff is pretty clearly a potential Jesus reference. It might not be, sure, but I don't think anyone can just dismiss outright that it might be.

[JulianPerez]

Again, you're taking it way too literally. Step back, and think of it like this. Jesus could heal the sick, walk on water, do all kinds of cool stuff. But it's not like he did it all the time. Why not? Wouldn't it have helped more people if he was just performing miracles 24/7? The point is, his abilities were kind of vague, and as far as we know from the Bible, just presented themselves when it was convenient. The Lord works in mysterious ways. And I think I speak for all of us when I say that the Super Kiss and the Cellaphane shield in Superman 2 were pretty mysterious.
To me, that "mysterious ways" thing has always been my justification for why Superman isn't at work all the time, making the most of his powers, particularly the more powerful pre-Crisis and movie Supes. It's like, we don't know why he chooses to use his abilites when and how he does, but it's pretty memorable when he does. And that definitely comes through in the movies for me.

I'll think I'll stay out of a conversation about religion that I am not qualified to respond to. However, I think this merits a response.

Pre-Crisis Superman had defined, consistent powers and abilities.

There was indeed a point where Superman was making up powers (in particular, it's unclear where Heat-Vision begins and X-Ray Vision ends), however, this soon subsided and after 1962 the powers of the Superman family were more or less set in stone.

One issue stated that Superman had a skill for "Super-Mathematics." This does not mean that he is right now pulling out of his backside a heretofore unheard of ability to crunch numbers. All it is, is a side-effect of a power that he has LONG been established as having, namely, Super-Intelligence, and there is some precidence for it, namely Superman performing interstellar ping-pong and outracing the world's most advanced supercomputer on one occasion.

There are almost no powers that Superman has, which were just quietly dropped or abandoned. Superman used his Super-Hypnotism regularly, as did his Super-Ventriloquism, Heat-Vision, Super-Shout, and his cape, which can stretch indefinitely.

For example, Pre-Reboot Superman has been stated as having Super-Aim. Think such a minor power was dropped? Wrong. Superman used it repeatedly, in his dart-throwing THIRD secret identity, and in one Shooter story even used his Super-Aim to hurl messages in a bottle to distant planets.

Even Superman's Super-Kiss was a consistent part of his power package. There wasn't anything mysterious about it; lip contact causes him to create a sensation of swooning euphoria.


...Okay, the cellophane S was pretty out of nowhere, I'll give you that. :D

[jaguarshark]

Again, I don't actually believe that Superman is a Jesus analogue, so I'm not overly keen to get into a big discussion about that, but just in response to Julian's good point:

Originally posted by Julian Perez
There are almost no powers that Superman has, which were just quietly dropped or abandoned. Superman used his Super-Hypnotism regularly, as did his Super-Ventriloquism, Heat-Vision, Super-Shout, and his cape, which can stretch indefinitely.
While that may be true, some of them were introduced pretty randomly in the first place, without thought given to how they would affect future stories. I remember reading an interview with Denny O'Neil where he was bemoaning the introduction of things like Super-Breath, and the alleged short-sightedness of the writers who introduced such powers, although considering the guy's reputation for being unable to write super-powerful characters, or at least having a preference towards less powerful characters, this is hardly a surprise.
My point, and it relates more to the "Is Superman Careless" board than this one, but we've brought it up now anyway, is that much in the same way Jesus didn't go around performing miracles 24 hours a day, eight days a week, Superman probably doesn't always use his powers to the best of his abilities, for the real-world reason that if he did, many stories would only last milliseconds. Keep in mind that Superman is a pop cultural icon, with new stories about him being told every week, whereas Jesus' achievments are limited to the stories in the Bible, so while Superman certainly is shown to use his abilities a lot more than Jesus or other religious figures, it's all relative to the amount of stories being told about them.
If someone actually had the all-powerful abilities of Pre-Crisis Supes, it is inconceivable that there would be any real problems in the world. He could have fixed pretty much everything by now, creating a boring fictional world for him to populate. So the only in-story thing I can think of to explain why he wouldn't have done so is the whole "Mysterious Ways" approach.

[jaguarshark]

You know what, I just read back my last post to myself, and even I don't agree with it. I wish I'd never posted in this particular thread in the first place, to be honest, but I'll leave it there for Julian to respond to if he wants anyway.

[Mia]

No, this IS About Religion, And it does matter. i think you are missing the point.
.


Uh-no I'm not , why don't you re-read my earlier post. You posted earlier that:

So what if the creators of Superman happen to be Jewish why does it matter?


And I responded:

I don't think that it matters, anymore than does anything else posted on any of the CBR forums.


So why don't you make up your mind, does religion matter or doesn't it?




CBR=COMICE BOOK RESOURCE not the Religious Site to decide on what religion a Comic book Superhero is.
.

I'm so glad that you got the title of the site right. While you are at it, you might want to take a careful look at several of the treads and topics on the site and you will clearly see that there are many threads don't deal with comic books at all.





Don't imply something you know nothing about. And thank you for your sugestion, but i think i'll stay..


I'm not implying anything at all. What I know is what I have seen from your posts. And you seem to be a very angry and agitated person who takes offense easily. And who twists things so that you can pick fights with others. Well I'm not indulging you.

[The Batman]

I don't think it would make any controversy. I remember reading a thread on this same subject, where the poster mentioned that Superman visisted a Protestant minister during some time of crisis (no I don't mean the Priest in For Tomorrow). And Batman has already admitted to being an atheist. Dr. Mid-Nite is a devout Catholic. Wonderwoman (I believe) is a pagan. I don't see why religion (or lack thereof) wouldn't or couldn't be part and parcel of a character. I think it's great for adding another layer or dimension to the character.

I for one am a Christian and I'm a huge Batman fan (with the tatoo to prove it). Does it bother me that the character is an atheist? Not at all.

As long as the characters religion (or lack thereof) isn't used as a means of sermonising. Or a brand of religion isn't ridiculed---I don't care.

i agree too, i find that characters being religious or otherwise only adds a layer of depth to their personality, at least when handled properly. i love the lapsed Catholic aspect of Daredevil as i can totally relate to it. that being said not everyone is as level headed about this sort of thing as you or i and it's those people that DC probably feels injecting some faith into their Big Guns isn't worth annoying.

i just see it as DC sort of playing it safe.

[KHShapiro]

So why don't you make up your mind, does religion matter or doesn't it?

I did make up my mind and there was no confusion about it. You need to reread my posts and if there is something specific that you dont understand , ask and i wil explain as i can now see from your post i havent made it clear.

I'm so glad that you got the title of the site right.

Thank you, i try


While you are at it, you might want to take a careful look at several of the treads and topics on the site and you will clearly see that there are many threads don't deal with comic books at all.

This is the thread i choose to responed to, not any of the others. I am not here to champion any cause or thread.


I'm not implying anything at all. What I know is what I have seen from your posts. And you seem to be a very angry and agitated person who takes offense easily.

See thats what assuming does.. what is it they say . assumptions , the are the mother of all F***-ups.. So to you i seem Agitated and angry, but in reality i think this is so stupid i cant keep myself from laughing out loud. so in this case you assumed wrong. I assume things as well. i assumed your Statement to me about not visiting had a passive-aggressive undertone to it (but i think that is what you get when you are dealing with the written word instead of face to face conversation) , but i guess it was truely a suggestion? (with a passive agressive undertone to it:rolleyes: )


And who twists things so that you can pick fights with others. Well I'm not indulging you.

What did i twist, that can't be said the same for you or anyone? If you look hard enough you will see what ever it was you were looking for even if it wasnt there to begin with, which is kinda like Deciding on a religion for Superman. None of my post were about "picking fight" and if i was then the person or persons that i choose to fight with they will know it. So Indulge me, cause i'm not picking a fight.

Mia, What i find interesting about this thread, is what i had stated, the Title and the context.
Superman is an Icon. People have very stong feelings about Icons even more so about Religion the only thing we are missing here is politics.

Back to Superman, If he was created as say , a buddhist( or any religion) i can accept that and i am 99% sure i would still like him the same. BUT he wasn't. i find a lot of these posts humorous, the lengths some of these posts have gone to to show there points is amazing.. . seriously some of you need to really think about politics.

Jaguarshark, i think you posts are well though out and i am not trying to fight with you or pick on you. Your post about the comparison of Superman and Jesus still has me smiling.
And now that i really think about it i can see it. I mean Superman has a weakness to Magic and Kryptonite , and Jesus has Metal spikes and Wooden crosses.. Damnit man, it was right there in front of me the whole time, how could i have been soooo blind!!!!! Yeah yeah yeah i know i am being a smart ass but i did understand what it was you were trying to get accross , i dont agree with it but i understood.

Now this is Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy left feild and i am sure this is going to ruffle some feathers so here it goes . If Superman was exactly the same.. execpt he was gay would he still be Jesus like? would he still be thought of as a christian. Or would be be ok if he was another religion now?

let the Flame Fest begin .... i am here all night :D

[SuperManny]

let the Flame Fest begin .... i am here all night :D

Let's not, and you've been warned. :mad:

Back on topic, please.

[KHShapiro]

Let's not, and you've been warned. :mad:

Back on topic, please.

This is on topic , all this is, is a Flame fest... What isnt on topic ? waiting for the reply to my post and stating it was going to be a flame fest? No one has been called any names, is someone mad about some of the points i have made?
So what have i been warned about , posting my opinion or asking a question? What is it about my opinion that you SuperManny dont agree with that warrents you to "warn me"? Or is it "let the flame Fest begin"
Please let me know so i can sensor myself to make sure not to offend you or whom ever it was that has been offended.

and the "move on Kiddo" i'll let it slide............:mad:

[Typo Lad]

This is on topic , all this is, is a Flame fest... What isnt on topic ? waiting for the reply to my post and stating it was going to be a flame fest? No one has been called any names, is someone mad about some of the points i have made?
So what have i been warned about , posting my opinion or asking a question? What is it about my opinion that you SuperManny dont agree with that warrents you to "warn me"? Or is it "let the flame Fest begin"
Please let me know so i can sensor myself to make sure not to offend you or whom ever it was that has been offended.

and the "move on Kiddo" i'll let it slide............:mad:

Dude, he's the mod. If he wants he can lock the thread.

This isn't a "flame fest". We don't do that here. It's a civil discussion. Or it's meant to be, Stop trying to make it into something it isn't.

[KHShapiro]

Dude, he's the mod. If he wants he can lock the thread.

Dude, maybe thats not a bad idea.



This isn't a "flame fest". We don't do that here.

Please Allow me to retract and rephrase my statement of "let the flame fest begin...:D " to :
I would love to read everyone thoughts about the question i just asked.. i will love to read some replies... i will be on all night.


It's a civil discussion. Or it's meant to be, Stop trying to make it into something it isn't.

I am viewing this as a civil discussion.If by replying to others post that use theory with a statement or question in reply , is that not what a discussion is about, people with different views. Is This now not a civil discussion because i dont agree with most of these points? And while other people try to express there view and have points as to there opinion, i can't? Or i am being non civil because i have a different opinion?


Stop trying to make it into something it isn't.

What is it i am trying to make this about?
Superman? Religion? Superman being like Jesus? Superman not being Jewish? Superman's creators? Supermans numorous writers? Superman movies?
With a title like " Superman=Jewish?" and all of the Jesus fact and rhetoric what could i possibly be making this into?

Maybe there should be some Sticky in this forum on RULES FOR DISCUSSION like something similar to the one in the DC Universe forum.

[SuperManny]

This is on topic , all this is, is a Flame fest... What isnt on topic ? waiting for the reply to my post and stating it was going to be a flame fest? No one has been called any names, is someone mad about some of the points i have made?
So what have i been warned about , posting my opinion or asking a question? What is it about my opinion that you SuperManny dont agree with that warrents you to "warn me"? Or is it "let the flame Fest begin"
Please let me know so i can sensor myself to make sure not to offend you or whom ever it was that has been offended.

and the "move on Kiddo" i'll let it slide............:mad:

I meant no offense by my "kiddo" title, it was just my usual way of casual speak. I apologize if it made you mad.

You have been warned about asking for a "flame fest". It's not appropriate behavior and that was what I was trying to shoot down. This was done because you have been so defensive in most of your answers that it is coming off as antagonistic.

Feel free to ask any questions, just try not to incite others to respond to your comments in that manner.

Maybe there should be some Sticky in this forum on RULES FOR DISCUSSION like something similar to the one in the DC Universe forum.

I had something like that years back, maybe it's time I do it again......

[KHShapiro]

You have been warned about asking for a "flame fest". It's not appropriate behavior and that was what I was trying to shoot down.

That i can understand.



This was done because you have been so defensive in most of your answers that it is coming off as antagonistic.

You meant Antagonistic right?. If you or anyone else got that from my posts, i don’t know what to really say..

My personal opinion about Superman is that he is a monotheist.

Think about this. Millions and millions of children read or know about Superman, run around in capes and all pretend to be just like him, i mean hey even though he isn’t real he does provide a good role model.. Now we all have know for years Superman was White with Blue eyes and brownish black hair. We accept that no matter what color we are.

Now after years and years it comes across Superman is a Jehovah witness, That’s Great for the Jehovah witnesses, who can now say can we be wrong look even Superman is Jehovah witness and he is the greatest super hero of all time. Think of how this might effect children its bad for little kids thinking that in order to be like Superman they need to become a Jehovah’s witness ( i am just using Jehovah witnesses i have nothing against them in anyway shape or form) Or what if Children no longer see what Superman stands for as a good thing because now they know he is a Jehovah witness and they don’t like what that religion stands for.

If the story about Superman fits into your life, religion whatever and it makes you feel better to sense some sort of connection, wonderful. But a thread like this trying to decide or debunk Superman’s religion, Tie him to a Jesus loving Jew, Jew for Jesus or just Jesus then i can see how the Green Lantern is really the story about Malcolm X,,,,, come on

On a personal note , again I am Jewish and very proud of it. For the Most Part i am reading on why Superman is Jesus and can't be Jewish.(Yes we all know the Story of how Jesus was Jewish, but thats another can of worms we wont open)
I have been to these places that Wars are fought and People Die over Religion, If Superman (of all things :rolleyes: ) Can help Stop people from getting Killed just by not Putting a religious class on him then why not keep him out of it. Just look at the Site Homerjay Quoted , Next people will be Quoting this site with links on how to argue why Superman is Jesus , so on and so forth.
HomerJay, I would really like to read your College paper you wrote on this topic, maybe it would clear things up for me about motive and view point. Maybe you could Post it,Link it or email it .

I had something like that years back, maybe it's time I do it again......

Religion and politics, Both can start wars.............. just a thought.

[Big Scary]

Ill be honest Shapiro i dont disagree with you one bit. Ill probably get yelled at for agreeing with you mainly that i dont think you have been antagonistic. If anything people have seemed to be attacking you more for having a strong opinion. But to talk about the topic on hand i dont understand how people who wrote this online article stretch to make some Superman info relate to any religion. Its a stretch. If the character was made by Jewish creators they may have gotten some of their ideas from early Bible/Torah stories but im sure it wasnt intentional. And to be honest arent most supeheros, especially Superman, gods in their own right. Why would the most powerful man in the universe suddenly stop to pray to a god? But then again remeber issue 117 when Clark Kent had his Bar Mitzvah? I think trying to interject faith into comic book characters is silly. Its never really been tackled unless its the basis of the character like Moon Knight or something. Its an interesting threah but i really think were stretching to try and make this case. Im sure we could put any character in there and make the case for him or her being Jewish if we really wanted to .