SPOILER: Cloak & Dagger de-powered or not?

[Blackcat]

SPOILER!!!

We finaly have conformation on Cloak and Dagger!

In Runaways 12, after being decked by Molly, Wolverine says "Only 198 mutants left on the stinkin' planet, and that girl's gotta be one of them". That means that the East Coast/West Coast arc takes place post House of M. Therefore, both Cloak and Dagger are still powered!

[The Fury]

Err...their powers are not mutations.

[Blackcat]

Many times a discussion has made about that. Their mutant powers were triggert by drugs, but they had the Mutant gene all the time.

Up until now their status was unknown, now it is known they have not lost their mutant gene.

[The Fury]

EDIT: Stupid mutations being bought on by drugs.

[The Lucky One]

I was asking about this last week for the Mutant Tournament... we never quite settled it. They're supposedly latent mutants whose mutations were triggered by the drugs (kinda like Polaris), which means in theory they should be included; but on the other hand, Marvel goes back and forth on whether they're mutants or not. They weren't listed in the 198 Files, when it seems like they should have been... they're not like hidden or anything.

-D

[mattbib]

Their being mutants was a spin by Marvel in the '90s to tie them into the X-titles somehow.

They're not mutants, just like Mimic is not a mutant.

[venuscameback]

Their being mutants was a spin by Marvel in the '90s to tie them into the X-titles somehow.

They're not mutants, just like Mimic is not a mutant.

wasn't Spider-Man ret-conned into being a mutant for a while, then the ret-con was ret-conned away?

venus

[mattbib]

Not that I remember. If he was it was probably a joke.

[The Lucky One]

Not that I remember. If he was it was probably a joke.

That's it exactly- a few years back, Marvel announced that because of the changes the spider's bite had wrought in his body chemistry, Spider-Man was now officially classified as a mutant and would be joining one of the X-teams. They even had a high-profile artist draw up a sketch of what Spidey's X-costume was going to look like, fans went into an uproar about whether or not it was a good thing... and then some intelligent soul glanced at his calendar and realized that it was April 1. Heh heh... nice.

And then they did it again a few years later when they announced that Wolverine would be joining the Avengers, and again we all had a really good chuckle about Marvel and their crazy jokes, and then the same guy checked his calendar again and realized that it was not in fact April 1 this time. And then all the laughter got really, really nervous.

-D

[Tre Styles]

I was asking about this last week for the Mutant Tournament... we never quite settled it. They're supposedly latent mutants whose mutations were triggered by the drugs (kinda like Polaris), which means in theory they should be included; but on the other hand, Marvel goes back and forth on whether they're mutants or not. They weren't listed in the 198 Files, when it seems like they should have been... they're not like hidden or anything.

-D


Would've been nice.....

<================ :rolleyes:

[Twigglet]

Marvel don't count Cloak and Dagger as mutants, hence them being in the Human resistance in HOM

[mattbib]

Marvel don't count Cloak and Dagger as mutants, hence them being in the Human resistance in HOMGreat observation, Twig.

There you have it.

[Beast]

Their being mutants was a spin by Marvel in the '90s to tie them into the X-titles somehow.

They're not mutants, just like Mimic is not a mutant.
They were referred to as mutants before the 90's. Their book which started in 1988 was even titled 'The Mutant Misadventures of Cloak and Dagger'.

[Beast]

Marvel don't count Cloak and Dagger as mutants, hence them being in the Human resistance in HOM
Marvel's bios still say they're latent mutants who's powers manifested due to the drug.

[mattbib]

They were referred to as mutants before the 90's. They're book which started in 1988 was even titled 'The Mutant Misadventures of Cloak and Dagger'.Oooh, two whole years...

Whatever, it was still a spin. They were never meant to be mutants. I've always believed their origin was a comment on the dangers of drug use.

[Twigglet]

Marvel's bios still say they're latent mutants who's powers manifested due to the drug.

Marvels bios have been wrong before.

They're currently classed as mutants in the MU I'm gathering.

[Beast]

Oooh, two whole years...

Whatever, it was still a spin. They were never meant to be mutants. I've always believed their origin was a comment on the dangers of drug use.
Intentions don't matter when it comes to comics, sadly. If they did, a lot of what CC intended for characters would still hold true. Same for Morrison and every other writer. One must go by the facts on record, and Marvel says they were latent mutants who's powers were activated by the drug.

[The Fury]

One must go by the facts on record, and Marvel says they were latent mutants who's powers were activated by the drug.
A latent mutant is not a mutant.

They took drugs and got powers. They are then mutates.

[Beast]

A latent mutant is not a mutant.

They took drugs and got powers. They are then mutates.
They're still mutants. Their powers were there, just not active. They became active due to the stimulus of the drugs. Marvel doesn't differentiate between Mutants and Mutates much anymore. :)

[Twigglet]

Intentions don't matter when it comes to comics, sadly. If they did, a lot of what CC intended for characters would still hold true. Same for Morrison and every other writer. One must go by the facts on record, and Marvel says they were latent mutants who's powers were activated by the drug.

Marvel says that Cloak was in the human resistance movement.

It says in the HOM handbook that Cage's group wanted to get humankind to strike back against mutants, and reestablish themselves as humans in the world.

That sounds like they're not mutants to me.

[The Fury]

They're still mutants. Their powers were there, just not active. They became active due to the stimulus of the drugs. Marvel doesn't differentiate between Mutants and Mutates much anymore. :)
Cool. So Spider-man is a mutant? and the F4 and Hulk? :D

[mattbib]

They're still mutants. Their powers were there, just not active.
Their powers weren't there, their latent mutant genes were.Marvel doesn't differentiate between Mutants and Mutates much anymore.Sure they do, otherwise mutates such as Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four and Ms. Marvel would be considered mutants as well.

[Beast]

Marvel says that Cloak was in the human resistance movement.

It says in the HOM handbook that Cage's group wanted to get humankind to strike back against mutants, and reestablish themselves as humans in the world.

That sounds like they're not mutants to me.
House of M can't be used for evidence, as it was an altered reality story.

And who's to say that Cloak wasn't a sympathetic mutant who was working with the Sapian League. Or just like in canon, he didn't know that he was a mutant and thought he had just recieved his powers due to the drugs. He wouldn't know he was a mutant.

[Beast]

Cool. So Spider-man is a mutant? and the F4 and Hulk? :D
No, because their powers weren't already there and just manifested due to the outside stimuli.

[Steven F.]

Marvel has considered Cloak and Dagger mutants since the 80's. They had powers, just not active. The drugs activated them...much like Slipstream had powers that Sage activated. He is also a mutant....and he is depowered.

[Beast]

Their powers weren't there, their latent mutant genes were.Sure they do, otherwise mutates such as Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four and Ms. Marvel would be considered mutants as well.
I'm talking about mutates in the case of mutants with latent powers which were activated by outside stimuli. Such as Polaris, who was a mutant with green hair who had latent magnetic powers which were later activated.

[mattbib]

Marvel has considered Cloak and Dagger mutants since the 80's. They had powers, just not active. The drugs activated them...much like Slipstream had powers that Sage activated. He is also a mutant....and he is depowered.Slipstream didn't have powers that Sage activated. Sage triggered Slipstreams X-gene, essentially causing him to evolve into a mutant.

Having a latent mutation doesn't make one a mutant. There's been no proof that Cloak and Dagger have active X-genes.

[Beast]

Slipstream didn't have powers that Sage activated. Sage triggered Slipstreams X-gene, essentially causing him to evolve into a mutant.

Having a latent mutation doesn't make one a mutant. There's been no proof that Cloak and Dagger have active X-genes.
Then what's so unreasonable about the drug triggered Cloak and Dagger's X-Gene? :)

[mattbib]

Then what's so unreasonable about the drug triggered Cloak and Dagger's X-Gene? :)It just doesn't make sense. The drug was a synthetic heroin. A street drug. Not a genetic enhancing drug; certainly nothing that could conceivably trigger mutation.

[Beast]

It just doesn't make sense. The drug was a synthetic heroin. A street drug. Not a genetic enhancing drug; certainly nothing that could conceivably trigger mutation.
It's comics. It doesn't always have to make sense. Mutations can trigger early due to a number of factors, including a life or death situation causing the catalization. It could be reasonably seen as their bodies reacting to a life or death situation and causing their X-Gene to become active. :)

[mattbib]

It's comics. It doesn't always have to make sense. Mutations can trigger early due to a number of factors, including a life or death situation causing the catalization. It could be reasonably seen as their bodies reacting to a life or death situation and causing their X-Gene to become active. :)
And yet Mimic isn't considered a mutant...

I'm well aware that it's comics, Beast. Don't patronize me.

It COULD be anything. It could be supernatural for all we know. The fact is that there has been no explanation other than the use of the word "Mutant" on the cover, as to why these two received powers when other subjects died.

There are too many coincidences (these two who just met happened to be the only two to survive? they just happened to develop powers that fed off one another?) in their powers for me to accept "activated latent mutation" until it's canonized.

Until they're identified as such in the context of a story I'm not going to be convinced otherwise.

[The Fury]

You know...Falcon is a mutant. :D

*runs off*

Yeah I know, cosmic cude, etc etc.

[Novaya Havoc]

... Phoenix is a mutant. :P

[Beast]

You know...Falcon is a mutant. :D

*runs off*

Yeah I know, cosmic cude, etc etc.
Malfunctioning Sentinel + Cosmic Cube. :p

[Steven F.]

Slipstream didn't have powers that Sage activated. Sage triggered Slipstreams X-gene, essentially causing him to evolve into a mutant.

Having a latent mutation doesn't make one a mutant. There's been no proof that Cloak and Dagger have active X-genes.Their appearances prove this. They had their own book called the "Mutant Misadventures"....and any fan of the duo know it is stated canon they are mutants.

And Sage activating Slippy is the same thing that happened to Cloak and Dagger. Just a drug instead of Sage.

[riotgear]

Marvel don't count Cloak and Dagger as mutants, hence them being in the Human resistance in HOM

That's Bendis, though. Like Carnage being an energy vampire?

[Herald of Galactus Number 420]

I wish my weed gave me more than unquenchable hunger.

[riotgear]

And yet Mimic isn't considered a mutant...

I'm well aware that it's comics, Beast. Don't patronize me.

It COULD be anything. It could be supernatural for all we know. The fact is that there has been no explanation other than the use of the word "Mutant" on the cover, as to why these two received powers when other subjects died.

There are too many coincidences (these two who just met happened to be the only two to survive? they just happened to develop powers that fed off one another?) in their powers for me to accept "activated latent mutation" until it's canonized.

Until they're identified as such in the context of a story I'm not going to be convinced otherwise.

Their latent mutant abilities were triggered, then altered to be symbiotic by the drug "D-Lite", through the mechanations of D'Spayre. This is not the first time mutations have been altered by chemicals. Remember Beast?

Mimic's abilities were given to him in an explosion of one of his father's machines. Mimic from "Exiles" is a mutant, not the 616 version.

[The Lucky One]

Except Beast had powers beforehand; Ty and Tandy did not.

-D

[riotgear]

Except Beast had powers beforehand; Ty and Tandy did not.

-D

Which is why I specified "latent".

[Fireball]

Is it just me or do we have this mutant vs. mutate debate like every week? :D

[riotgear]

Is it just me or do we have this mutant vs. mutate debate like every week? :D

I'm not arguing. I know what the difference is. They are not mutates, because even if their latent mutant genes were awakened by something other than puberty or a traumatic event, they had the latency there. Spider-Man is the textbook definition of a mutate; radiation mutating his genetic structure to give him the abilities of a spider (although that clarity's getting murkier lately). Of course, these are classic Marvel's definitions, not the dictionary's. ;)

[mattbib]

Yes, this is at least the third time in recent weeks that I've argued this.

Everything that Inferno and riotgear say is possible, but not positive. Again, until it is there's no proof that either character possesses the X-gene and that calling them mutants wasn't just a marketing attempt.

And Inferno, it's definitely not stated in canon that they're mutants.

[The Lucky One]

Polaris is a mutant and a mutate. She's a mutant because of her mutant power- green hair. She's a mutate because an outside source acted on her to activate her secondary mutation, magnetic powers.

Cloak and Dagger? Similar, except they didn't have green hair or any other discernable mutation beforehand. They ARE mutates. But as for whether they're mutants, well, it's debatable. (I honestly don't care whether they're included or not, but it's Matt's call, and I can see his point, just as I think I can see the opposition as well.)

-D

[mattbib]

I honestly don't care whether they're included or not, but it's Matt's call, and I can see his point, just as I think I can see the opposition as well.)
The reason they're not included is the same reason Mimic's not included. They're not confirmed mutants. I'm almost postive they're not listed as such in the MK OHOTMU that came out last year. I'll double-check tonight.

[riotgear]

Yes, this is at least the third time in recent weeks that I've argued this.

Everything that Inferno and riotgear say is possible, but not positive. Again, until it is there's no proof that either character possesses the X-gene and that calling them mutants wasn't just a marketing attempt.

And Inferno, it's definitely not stated in canon that they're mutants.

I could've sworn it said that in "The Mutant Misadventures of Cloak and Dagger". I'll have to go back and re-read those this week.

[mattbib]

I could've sworn it said that in "The Mutant Misadventures of Cloak and Dagger". I'll have to go back and re-read those this week.And we know that what's posted on the cover of comics, whether a title add-on or not, are to be taken at face value?

As I've said repeatedly, "The Mutant Misadventures of..." was an attempt to capitalize on the X-Men's popularity. A stretch, at best, to lump the two characters in with the X-titles. The same was done with Alpha Flight at the time. There was an article in Marvel Age at the time essentially stating as much.

[Novaya Havoc]

And we know that what's posted on the cover of comics, whether a title add-on or not, are to be taken at face value?

As I've said repeatedly, "The Mutant Misadventures of..." was an attempt to capitalize on the X-Men's popularity. A stretch, at best, to lump the two characters in with the X-titles. The same was done with Alpha Flight at the time. There was an article in Marvel Age at the time essentially stating as much.

So true.

In the early-late 80s (even today), being a "mutant" character was seen as the best marketing move at Marvel.

That's why Dazzler was created as a mutant character for Casablanca (and debuted in X-Men). Because mutant was the "it" thing. And besides -- simple mutancy was an easy blanket term to justify superpowers than all of the hackneyed ways of the 60s and 70s.

I wouldn't consider them mutants. Two Dazzler villains received their powers the same way (experimental drug use) and they weren't considered genetic mutants.

[Steven F.]

As I keep saying though....in the comic, it has stated that they are mutants. In the actual comic. Not just fan boy speculation, but in the book.

[riotgear]

And we know that what's posted on the cover of comics, whether a title add-on or not, are to be taken at face value?

As I've said repeatedly, "The Mutant Misadventures of..." was an attempt to capitalize on the X-Men's popularity. A stretch, at best, to lump the two characters in with the X-titles. The same was done with Alpha Flight at the time. There was an article in Marvel Age at the time essentially stating as much.

I'm not arguing that... it is a blatant attempt. And I know just because it's on the cover, it doesn't mean it's true in the book. I was just stating what I thought I remembered. I'll read those through and post what I find.

[mattbib]

Admittedly I haven't read many of the later issues of C&D, but like I said, I don't recall them every throwing around the term "mutant."

That said, I did pull both the Marvel Knights and the Women of Marvel OHOTMUs. Cloak's doesn't mention anything about mutation, latent or otherwise. Dagger's, however, does specify that the drug "awakened latent mutant abilities in both of them."

While that makes it more likely that they'd be classified as mutants (and I'm not against the idea) it's still not necessarily enough. First, the Handbooks definitely aren't free of error or contradictory information. Plus plenty of other characters (Mimic, some of the Savage Land Mutates, etc.) have had entries stating the exact same thing, yet none of them are mutants. So I'm more agreeable to the idea, but I still would prefer on-panel confirmation. There's certainly not enough proof to allow them into the Mutant Tournament.

[riotgear]

Here is page 15 of Cloak & Dagger (vol.3) #19...

Dang it, I can't seem to get it to post. Anyway, they mention it there about their mutations.

[Dipset Byrd Gang]

Cloak and dagger were stated to be mutants many times in Spidey nooks in the 90's when they guessed starred alot.

[LordAllMighty]

IIRC, the same drug that gave Cloak and Dagger their power also had a strange effect on both Sunspot and Wolfsbane's powers?

I think somewhere in the story Prof. X even called them mutants (New Mutants 22-25)

[Steven F.]

That is correct, Professor X did call them Mutants back in New Mutants....Sunspot and Wolfsbane were affected too.

[LordAllMighty]

That is correct, Professor X did call them Mutants back in New Mutants....Sunspot and Wolfsbane were affected too.

So there you go their mutants. If the head of the mutant world says you're a mutant then you're a mutant.:D

[Ivan Isaacs]

IIRC, the same drug that gave Cloak and Dagger their power also had a strange effect on both Sunspot and Wolfsbane's powers?

I think somewhere in the story Prof. X even called them mutants (New Mutants 22-25)

Yep. That's what Terry Austin wrote on the letters page of MMCD #3. He ALSO wrote that "Mutant Misadventures of" was added because they didn't want to call it Vol. 3 and MM was the best they could come up with.