Gail Simone's Action Comics is terrible [Archive]

SuperSince92

01-18-2006, 05:51 PM

Thank God this was her last issue. The only reason I purchased it was for continuity sake and after reading it I regretted even buying it then.

I hate having the feeling that the author is using the book as a platform for political and social issues she deems worthy of exploring in a SUPERMAN comic. It hadn't occured to me until today, but the last issue of Action I recall where Superman didn't fight a WOMAN was the Infinite Crisis tie-in (which was probably an assignment given to Gail moreso than her own idea).

Perhaps I'm off base here and reaching, but has anyone else felt like Simone used this book as a forum for her raging feminism? Am I the only one that thinks that is rediculous given the majority of the readers are male who could care less about her agenda?

"I always knew some guy was going to take it all away from me." Give me a break.

Gail Simone

01-18-2006, 06:52 PM

hahahahahahahaha!

Oh, my god, sorry, but this is priceless.

Wow. I don't even know where to start, so I'll just say, LiveWire is an obnoxious brat who blames all her problems on men even when they've done nothing at all to her. She's not a role model, or my voice, and in fact, is the type of person I can't stand, blaming everyone else for her own failures.

If that's raging feminism, yikes, someone changed the definition.

Sorry you didn't enjoy it, Kurt and Geoff are going to kick ass I bet. But I think you read a WHOLE LOT into this issue that is absolutely, categorically not there.

Gail

f. chong rutherford

01-18-2006, 07:00 PM

Perhaps I'm off base here and reaching, but has anyone else felt like Simone used this book as a forum for her raging feminism? Am I the only one that thinks that is rediculous given the majority of the readers are male who could care less about her agenda?

I would agree, yes, the assertion is way off base and is reaching. Those Superman comics were a lot of things, but a, 'forum for her raging feminism,' no. That's pretty looney toons, not the least of which is because she's not, to my knowledge, a 'raging feminist' in the first place.

ForEverAncien

01-18-2006, 07:00 PM

Gail, that was too funny. :D

Captain Jim

01-18-2006, 07:18 PM

Personally, I hated to hear Gail was leaving. :(

jerrymcl89

01-18-2006, 07:29 PM

I think it is usually unwise to assume, in reading comics, that the author shares the social-political agenda of the supervillian. :)

I thought it was a fun story, like most of Gail's Action run.

Sabrinaset

01-18-2006, 07:35 PM

Don't worry, Gail. I'll always have your comics around so I can see you in Action any time I want to! :)

SuperSince92

01-18-2006, 07:37 PM

Be Stiff

01-18-2006, 07:51 PM

First and foremost, I respect the hell out of the fact Gail responded to the criticism herself. Very high class.

However, the only thing commented on was Livewire. Glossed over was the fact Superman fought all women during the run sans the Infinite Crisis stories. I'm sorry, but I'm still not convinced.

Why is this a problem (other than the fact John Byrne pencils all women with terrifying mouths these days)? Most characters in comics are men, most supervillans are men. The fact you've picked this out as your complaint tells me more about your politics than the comic could ever tell us about Gail Simone's.

PS: Sup Gail! Looking forward to more Villans United in April!

The Wayner

01-18-2006, 08:07 PM

Kurt and Geoff are going to kick ass I bet.

I concur. That isn't a bet I'd like to take you up on! ;)

superman1984

01-18-2006, 08:10 PM

I am sorry to see Gail leaving the book, I have enjoyed her run on it...

Wannabe

01-18-2006, 08:13 PM

I like the fact that this guy thinks that not only her writing, but Gail herself is a terrible person.

Babylon23

01-18-2006, 08:21 PM

Personally, I've loved every issue of Gail's run on Action, and I'm sad to see her go. This run brought me back to Superman after more than 10 years.

TCJohnson

01-18-2006, 08:23 PM

It hadn't occured to me until today, but the last issue of Action I recall where Superman didn't fight a WOMAN was the Infinite Crisis tie-in (which was probably an assignment given to Gail moreso than her own idea).

Just to point out that Gail has said Dr. Psycho and Black Adan was completely her idea.

Gail Simone

01-18-2006, 08:33 PM

First and foremost, I respect the hell out of the fact Gail responded to the criticism herself. Very high class.

However, the only thing commented on was Livewire. Glossed over was the fact Superman fought all women during the run sans the Infinite Crisis stories. I'm sorry, but I'm still not convinced.

Okay, let's address that. First, you have to remember, Repulse isn't real. Superman was fighting Doctor Polaris there. Then Darkseid, then Dr. Psycho, then Black Adam. So that leaves, what, two female villains? How in the world does two villains count as the entire run? Even if you count Repulse, which I don't, you're still 4 males to 3 females.

Damn my raging feminism! :)

I'm kidding, as I say, sorry you didn't like it, but I think your facts are way off.

Gail

Corrina

01-18-2006, 08:44 PM

Sabrinaset

01-18-2006, 08:45 PM

Repulse isn't real.

I think Repulse is real, but I'm not as sure about Byrne...

jerrymcl89

01-18-2006, 08:48 PM

I seem to recall Greg Rucka, for example, having Superman fight mostly men. I'm willing to view that as not being an 'agenda', though.

Kevinroc

01-18-2006, 08:55 PM

You have to remember that Gail didn't even create Livewire. She was a creation of Bruce Timm's animated Superman series. Livewire had a few changes here from her animated origin (it seemed like she already had powers before the accident) and she couldn't just blame Superman for what happened to her.

The way her origin was potrayed in the animated series, her dillusional hatred of Superman for turning her into Livewire while still wrong, is more understandable than here.

SUPERECWFAN1

01-18-2006, 10:09 PM

Robin3

01-18-2006, 10:45 PM

Okay, let's address that. First, you have to remember, Repulse isn't real. Superman was fighting Doctor Polaris there. Then Darkseid, then Dr. Psycho, then Black Adam. So that leaves, what, two female villains? How in the world does two villains count as the entire run? Even if you count Repulse, which I don't, you're still 4 males to 3 females.

This comment relates to a question I asked in your Question section, Gail. I'll repost it here:
1. Is it possible to keep Repulse as a villain and just utterly do away with Polaris's normal self? DC could use more alpha-villains.

Should I take from your comment that you want Repulse to just be a temporary character? Maybe Infinite Crisis is all planned out, but it seems like a good opportunity to clean out a lot of the beta villains in the DCU, and swap better ones, like Repulse, in their place.

TCJohnson

01-18-2006, 10:56 PM

Isn't Dr. Polaris dead anyway?

Indefatigable

01-18-2006, 11:05 PM

Gail is Livewire?

The Shadow

01-18-2006, 11:36 PM

Personally, I hated to hear Gail was leaving. :(
As did I... her and Byrne's run has been one of the most enjoyable in recent years.

marshal99

01-18-2006, 11:51 PM

I think Gail did an ok job following Chuck Austen. Her run with Byrne was decent. I miss Chuck's big fight atmosphere really. You never knew who or what was gonna show up next and Action Comics....really was Action Comics. ;)

Heck no , Austen run was so bloody awful and rubbish and makes no sense with so many loose ends you wouldn't know where to begin.

Opening arc of Austin - Doomsday loose in metropolis
Closing arc of Austin - Doomsday still running loose with Gog , Preus and god knows what else.

SUPERECWFAN1

01-18-2006, 11:55 PM

Heck no , Austen run was so bloody awful and rubbish and makes no sense with so many loose ends you wouldn't know where to begin.

Opening arc of Austin - Doomsday loose in metropolis
Closing arc of Austin - Doomsday still running loose with Gog , Preus and god knows what else.

This I blame on editors. He was setting up some huge things. Then they went and booted him and didn't fix anything he laid down. Lana Lang shows up in Metropolis .....Forgotten.

He was setting up some great soap opera elements and DC screwed it up.

yeoman

01-19-2006, 12:01 AM

Personally, I hated to hear Gail was leaving. :(

A-men.

Best writing on a regular Superman book I've seen in years.

The Shadow

01-19-2006, 12:02 AM

This I blame on editors. He was setting up some huge things. Then they went and booted him and didn't fix anything he laid down. Lana Lang shows up in Metropolis .....Forgotten.

He was setting up some great soap opera elements and DC screwed it up.
Yeah... I was digging Austen's Superman stuff as well. The fact that all his stories were dumped or hastily finished isn't his fault.

marshal99

01-19-2006, 12:03 AM

This I blame on editors. He was setting up some huge things. Then they went and booted him and didn't fix anything he laid down. Lana Lang shows up in Metropolis .....Forgotten.

He was setting up some great soap opera elements and DC screwed it up.

Editors didn't screwed him , he screwed himself by writing rubbish stories that goes nowhere and writing established characters totally out of character.

SUPERECWFAN1

01-19-2006, 12:11 AM

Editors didn't screwed him , he screwed himself by writing rubbish stories that goes nowhere and writing established characters totally out of character.

Nope...they screwed him. His book was the 2nd most read Superman book solo wise after the ultra hyped ( and god awful ) Lee/Azzerllo Superman run. Austen's was a change of pace baby. It was ACTION . His Superman was a light hearted guy and DC cleary wanted a Supes depressed for Infinite Crisis so...we saw what happened.

SUPERECWFAN1

01-19-2006, 12:13 AM

Yeah... I was digging Austen's Superman stuff as well. The fact that all his stories were dumped or hastily finished isn't his fault.

DC wanted a depressed Superman for Infinite Crisis I imagine. ;)

They knew Chuck's Superman was a totally different feel. I can see this as them wanting him to tailer his plots into all the Omac,Days of Vengence stuff and he and them seperated on that.

The Shadow

01-19-2006, 12:13 AM

Nope...they screwed him. His book was the 2nd most read Superman book solo wise after the ultra hyped ( and god awful ) Lee/Azzerllo Superman run. Austen's was a change of pace baby. It was ACTION . His Superman was a light hearted guy and DC cleary wanted a Supes depressed for Infinite Crisis so...we saw what happened.
What he said.

Austen's run was better than the dreck Lee and Azzurello put out.

I would have loved Simone, Austen and Rucka doing the 3 Superman books for longer than a few months! That would have been awesome.

Kevinroc

01-19-2006, 12:48 AM

DC wanted a depressed Superman for Infinite Crisis I imagine. ;)

They knew Chuck's Superman was a totally different feel. I can see this as them wanting him to tailer his plots into all the Omac,Days of Vengence stuff and he and them seperated on that.

Gail's Superman wasn't exactly depressed. ;)

Messchird

01-19-2006, 01:26 AM

This thread's hilarious.

Agentum

01-19-2006, 01:57 AM

We have diffrent tastes, just because the writer is a member of the forum doen't mean ju must like her.
He didn't like it, so be it.

Guts/Batman

01-19-2006, 03:14 AM

What he said.

Austen's run was better than the dreck Lee and Azzurello put out.

I would have loved Simone, Austen and Rucka doing the 3 Superman books for longer than a few months! That would have been awesome.

I would be on board with this except I would like Rucka's run on Adventures not be IC heavy.

Guts/Batman

01-19-2006, 03:16 AM

Gail's Superman wasn't exactly depressed. ;)

Of course not, which is why I loved her run. Gail's Action was an example of how to write good quality, character led stories in the midst of a big company crossover.

Guts/Batman

01-19-2006, 03:19 AM

Isn't Dr. Polaris dead anyway?

I think Gail's run takes place way before IC #1.

glennsim

01-19-2006, 08:21 AM

Okay, let's address that. First, you have to remember, Repulse isn't real. Superman was fighting Doctor Polaris there. Then Darkseid, then Dr. Psycho, then Black Adam. So that leaves, what, two female villains? How in the world does two villains count as the entire run? Even if you count Repulse, which I don't, you're still 4 males to 3 females.

Damn my raging feminism! :)

I'm kidding, as I say, sorry you didn't like it, but I think your facts are way off.

Gail

While I don't necessarily agree with the original poster, I would assert that if the suggestion is "Superman fought too many women" then the fact that one of them was an imaginary woman is splitting hairs. In fact, one could argue that this was more of an example of what he's suggesting because Superman wasn't allowed to just fight the male Dr. Polaris, a female version had to be created in order to give Superman a female to battle.

But, again, overall I disagree with him. Heck, I hadn't even noticed any trend.

Gail Simone

01-19-2006, 09:30 AM

We have diffrent tastes, just because the writer is a member of the forum doen't mean ju must like her.
He didn't like it, so be it.

Sweetie, that's perfectly valid. I absoLUTEly defend a poster's right to hate my stuff and say so loudly. That's fine.

But, okay, that first post had some seriously egregious errors in it, that's all. I haven't defended my work as brilliant, I simply stated that the 'raging feminist' comment was seriously not what I had in mind, and that the 'He only fought women the entire run' thing was factually a complete kerfluffle.

ALWAYS okay to say what you really felt about my stuff, got no problem with that at all.

Gail

Gail Simone

01-19-2006, 09:40 AM

While I don't necessarily agree with the original poster, I would assert that if the suggestion is "Superman fought too many women" then the fact that one of them was an imaginary woman is splitting hairs. In fact, one could argue that this was more of an example of what he's suggesting because Superman wasn't allowed to just fight the male Dr. Polaris, a female version had to be created in order to give Superman a female to battle.

But, again, overall I disagree with him. Heck, I hadn't even noticed any trend.

Sure, I could 100% understand if someone felt that way. But again, it was a bit of a confluence of events that weren't quite intentional. I was given Action without pitching, but when I did my outlines, the two stories the editor most wanted to see were Polaris and the Queen of Fables, by a long shot. I had lots of other guy villains, including some new characters. But remember, I didn't know at the time I'd be on the book only until the new editor came aboard, so I thought I'd have a lot more time to do a lot more stories.

We started with Repulse, whom, again, I still say is a male character despite having boobs, but I do understand people who count it as a female villain story. Then Darkseid, then Dr. Psycho, then Black Adam, and around there sometime, I found out what they'd forgotten to tell John and I (completely by accident), that we were only on for a short time. So I had a story I really wanted to do (bringing Livewire to the DCU, an opportunity I didn't think would come along again any time soon), and the editor still REALLY wanted the Queen Of Fables (whom I created, JLA notwithstanding), so we used the last three issues for that.

Even though it's two back-to-back female villains, I have to say, I don't quite get why that would twist anyone's panties. Superman's rogues gallery has very few females in it, so it's nice to bring a couple more to that party. But if anyone thinks LiveWire and the Queen are somehow feminist statements, well, jeez, I don't know what to say. It's like saying the Joker is a pro-albino statement.

I AM a feminist, but my definition of that word is so far removed from what the scumbags like Rush Limbaugh say it is that it's quite, I'm sure, unrecognizable. Basically, I'm for considering people as value neutral til proven otherwise, meaning man, woman, black, white, yellow, brown, short, tall, I don't care. You might be exceptional, or less than exceptional, but you should be judged on your merits, not on what's on the outside. But that's just me.

Gail

TCJohnson

01-19-2006, 09:47 AM

I think Gail's run takes place way before IC #1.

I know, but the poster above me was talking about using him in the future.

Robin3

01-19-2006, 09:54 AM

I know, but the poster above me was talking about using him in the future.

Yeah, she kind of avoided that question. I just want to know if they could use Repulse in the future, sans Dr. Polaris.

If it's not Gail's call to make, that's okay. If she's off the book, I imagine that an editor or a future writer could bring the character back. I just want to know the author's intent: is Repulse just a throwaway character?

glennsim

01-19-2006, 10:17 AM

Sure, I could 100% understand if someone felt that way. But again, it was a bit of a confluence of events that weren't quite intentional. I was given Action without pitching, but when I did my outlines, the two stories the editor most wanted to see were Polaris and the Queen of Fables, by a long shot. I had lots of other guy villains, including some new characters. But remember, I didn't know at the time I'd be on the book only until the new editor came aboard, so I thought I'd have a lot more time to do a lot more stories.

We started with Repulse, whom, again, I still say is a male character despite having boobs, but I do understand people who count it as a female villain story. Then Darkseid, then Dr. Psycho, then Black Adam, and around there sometime, I found out what they'd forgotten to tell John and I (completely by accident), that we were only on for a short time. So I had a story I really wanted to do (bringing Livewire to the DCU, an opportunity I didn't think would come along again any time soon), and the editor still REALLY wanted the Queen Of Fables (whom I created, JLA notwithstanding), so we used the last three issues for that.

Even though it's two back-to-back female villains, I have to say, I don't quite get why that would twist anyone's panties. Superman's rogues gallery has very few females in it, so it's nice to bring a couple more to that party. But if anyone thinks LiveWire and the Queen are somehow feminist statements, well, jeez, I don't know what to say. It's like saying the Joker is a pro-albino statement.

I AM a feminist, but my definition of that word is so far removed from what the scumbags like Rush Limbaugh say it is that it's quite, I'm sure, unrecognizable. Basically, I'm for considering people as value neutral til proven otherwise, meaning man, woman, black, white, yellow, brown, short, tall, I don't care. You might be exceptional, or less than exceptional, but you should be judged on your merits, not on what's on the outside. But that's just me.

Gail

I absolutely agree with you. I was merely defending that portion of his logic, in the principle of fairness, not his overall point.

YoGo

01-19-2006, 11:04 AM

Even if all Supes fought during the short run of Gail's was female villains (which was not the case) how the heckitty heck heck is that a basis for a feminist agenda? Care to expand??

Gail Simone

01-19-2006, 11:05 AM

BANG!

Gail

YoGo

01-19-2006, 11:09 AM

Argh! feminist...a-agenda gun....my...one...weakness...

geordiesteve

01-19-2006, 01:07 PM

Huge respect to Gail Simone for coming on here and defending her position and discussing the comic with the fans on a public forum. I can't see many of her colleagues doing the same, well not without running off in a hissy fit when they find out some people have a different view!

Looking forward to trying more of your work in the future.

Stephen

Lurker

01-19-2006, 01:14 PM

BANG!

Gail

BANG BANG!

Cactus Jack ;)

The Shadow

01-19-2006, 01:33 PM

It's like saying the Joker is a pro-albino statement.
Oh, now you have something against albino's??? ;) :p

TCJohnson

01-19-2006, 01:39 PM

I want to say that I completely and totally agree with the title of this thread. Gail is terrible!!!

Her writing isn't terrible at all. I quite fancy it. But in most things Gail is terrible.

samuraizero

01-19-2006, 01:42 PM

SuperManny

01-19-2006, 02:12 PM

"I always knew some guy was going to take it all away from me." Give me a break.

I think you're reading too much into the comic book....

The story was entertaining and actually was a nice close to Gail's run. I actually liked the ending sequence with Josef's dinner invitation!

There've been other female villains who were man-haters anyway, so I don't see why this should stand out as a Gail Simone personal vendetta against manly masterhood.

*looks forward to more LiveWire*

TCJohnson

01-19-2006, 02:30 PM

Actually, isn't having a female villain who is a man hater going against feminism? I mean, if Gail was pushing a feminist agenda, Livewire would be a lot more sympathetic or even a hero that outshines Superman. Since the reason that she is a villain is that she is a man hater, that goes against any femenist agenda.

Gail is such a chauvanistic pig!

Cam63

01-19-2006, 04:22 PM

Yes, SuperSince92, you really got Gail pegged and put her in her place, by gum !

Damn all RAGING feminists and their political and social agendas !

Gail Simone

01-19-2006, 05:06 PM

It's okay, I think he just misinterpreted a little, I'm not trying to roast the guy!

But I already miss Superman, DAMMIT! :)

Gail

Lurker

01-19-2006, 05:21 PM

It's okay, I think he just misinterpreted a little, I'm not trying to roast the guy!

Its too late, your loyal barbarion horde have already ripped him to shreds.

But I already miss Superman, DAMMIT! :)

Gail

Quite obviously, You are not alone in this respect.

;)

Cam63

01-19-2006, 05:33 PM

" Loyal barbarian horde " ?

Meh...

YoGo

01-19-2006, 07:43 PM

Gail is such a chauvanistic pig!

Actually the politically correct term is "chauvanistic sow".

Calamas

01-19-2006, 07:55 PM

Cam, you must be lost. This isn't YABS. Wait, wait, don't panic! Follow Yogo and you'll be back home in no time.

(Just remember to duck.)

Calamas

01-19-2006, 08:05 PM

On a more serious (and more inclusive) note, let me start with these statements:

1) I am a big fan of Gail Simone.

2) I disliked more of her Action issues than I liked.

Sure, I see what she was trying to accomplish. It just didn’t work for me. And so be it.

That being said, the assertions in the opening post are some of the most ridiculous that I’ve ever read.

Lord Grog

01-19-2006, 09:00 PM

Gail is Livewire?

Egads! Bruce Timm invented Gail Simone!!!!! :eek:

TCJohnson

01-19-2006, 10:16 PM

Egads! Bruce Timm invented Gail Simone!!!!! :eek:

Or Gail SImone is Bruce Timm in drag.

Lurker

01-19-2006, 10:39 PM

the assertions in the opening post are some of the most ridicules that I’ve ever read.

The title of the thread itself is just straight up insulting (along with being ripe flame bait) and it (the title) should have at least been edited.

Calamas

01-19-2006, 11:09 PM

Oh, I should add that Gail went out on an extremely high note.

Lurker

01-19-2006, 11:17 PM

Oh, I should add that Gail went out on an extremely high note.

This thread or her Action run?

Karl J. Barnes

01-19-2006, 11:27 PM

Or Gail SImone is Bruce Timm in drag.

I thought that we all decided that Mark Waid is Gail in drag???

Rich L

01-20-2006, 01:25 AM

I thought that we all decided that Mark Waid is Gail in drag???

Wait, so Bruce Timm is Mark Waid in drag???

And Gail's run, while not one of my favourites (didn't like Queen of Fables and Dr Psycho felt too playful - although Black Adam was great), was miles better than Lee/Azz's...although I'm not sure Nelson's finishing helped Byrne's pencils any. A shame that they weren't informed they were only short-term on the book.

Oh, and while Repulse might make a good villain in her own right, the fact that Dr Polaris is dead would seem to put the kibosh on that.

And respect to Gail, as always, for responding to fans.

Gail Simone

01-20-2006, 01:47 AM

The title of the thread itself is just straight up insulting (along with being ripe flame bait) and it (the title) should have at least been edited.

To be honest, it doesn't bother me. I don't want to be treated any differently just because I have a board here.

But thanks for the thought!

Gail

Agentum

01-20-2006, 02:08 AM

Sweetie, that's perfectly valid. I absoLUTEly defend a poster's right to hate my stuff and say so loudly. That's fine.

But, okay, that first post had some seriously egregious errors in it, that's all. I haven't defended my work as brilliant, I simply stated that the 'raging feminist' comment was seriously not what I had in mind, and that the 'He only fought women the entire run' thing was factually a complete kerfluffle.

ALWAYS okay to say what you really felt about my stuff, got no problem with that at all.

Gail
I think some posts indicate that he can't think your writing is bad even if he may have drawn the wrong conclusions.
It is good that you stand for what you have and haven't done, i just thought some of the posters sounded like it was wrong to question you, we don't all know you and what your "agendas" may be :)

YoGo

01-20-2006, 03:05 AM

She shoots fans.

I seen her runnin with her guns outta the house screamin: "Darrk SIide! Ah'm sendin you back to thuh daarrk siide!!"

SPAfreak

01-20-2006, 05:10 AM

Superman's rogues gallery has very few females in it

I always kind of figured that's because DC editorial didn't want Superman hitting a girl. Even hitting an evil, genocidal witch seems a little out of character for Superman.

David O Burcham

01-20-2006, 06:03 AM

Since Gail used so many female villians who were unable to defeat the superMAN... wouldn't that make her a "raging misogynist" instead of a "raging feminist".

Shame-shame, Gail, ev'r body knows yer name!

Xero

01-20-2006, 06:41 AM

....blah blah blah....

She's one of the best writers DC has. She may not be your thing and that's cool, but i'm here for the stories and she writes 'em real good.

I just wish she'd update the WiR website.

Lurker

01-20-2006, 08:17 AM

To be honest, it doesn't bother me. I don't want to be treated any differently just because I have a board here.

But thanks for the thought!

Gail

Whether you have a board or not, I thought there were rules prohibiting posting thread titles akin to "Gail Simone is terrible" or "Chuck Austin is a sadist." If someone started a thread using my real name along those lines, I'd be summarily put-out so kudos to you for having such thick-skin even though you or Joe Blow from the candy store shouldn't have to put up with it.

The Shadow

01-20-2006, 08:44 AM

It's okay, I think he just misinterpreted a little, I'm not trying to roast the guy!

But I already miss Superman, DAMMIT! :)

Gail
Gail, I have a question for you... how long does it take you to write a comic script? From when you first put pen to paper or fingers on a keyboard to do a BoP script... how long until you have the finished product? Then does it go to the editor who makes the changes or does it go back to you with notes on the changes?

SuperManny

01-20-2006, 10:09 AM

Whether you have a board or not, I thought there were rules prohibiting posting thread titles akin to "Gail Simone is terrible" or "Chuck Austin is a sadist." If someone started a thread using my real name along those lines, I'd be summarily put-out so kudos to you for having such thick-skin even though you or Joe Blow from the candy store shouldn't have to put up with it.

Well, since this is a comic fan's board and everyone's entitled to their own opinion, I figured that titles saying "Gail Simone is terrible" or "Ron Marz is wonderful" doesn't fall along the lines of editing. It is an opinion and a subject to be discussed about. When one reads such a title, my opinion is that it would motivate other people to respond.

It's very unlikely a thread title would change or shape a person's mind, anyway (not implying you said this, Lurker). If the point of the thread was to get the writer to respond, then yeah I would be more politically correct.

For the record, I think Gail is awesome and I loved her recent work in Birds of Prey, Action Comics and Villains United.

:D

Lurker

01-20-2006, 11:57 AM

Well, since this is a comic fan's board and everyone's entitled to their own opinion, I figured that titles saying "Gail Simone is terrible" or "Ron Marz is wonderful" doesn't fall along the lines of editing. It is an opinion and a subject to be discussed about. When one reads such a title, my opinion is that it would motivate other people to respond.

It's very unlikely a thread title would change or shape a person's mind, anyway (not implying you said this, Lurker). If the point of the thread was to get the writer to respond, then yeah I would be more politically correct.

For the record, I think Gail is awesome and I loved her recent work in Birds of Prey, Action Comics and Villains United.:D

The bulk of my suggestion can widdled down to the title of the thread being tweaked to "Gail Simone's Action Comics is Terrible" if only to curtail the "Johhny Redbeard is a nazi terrorist" entitled flame wars that may follow.

SuperManny

01-20-2006, 12:15 PM

The bulk of my suggestion can widdled down to the title of the thread being tweaked to "Gail Simone's Action Comics is Terrible" if only to curtail the "Johhny Redbeard is a nazi terrorist" entitled flame wars that may follow.

It's a valid point, duly noted.

Agentum

01-20-2006, 12:24 PM

This is all terrible, we are terrible.

Gail Simone

01-20-2006, 03:36 PM

Gail, I have a question for you... how long does it take you to write a comic script? From when you first put pen to paper or fingers on a keyboard to do a BoP script... how long until you have the finished product? Then does it go to the editor who makes the changes or does it go back to you with notes on the changes?

It varies a lot, but most of the time spent on a script isn't in front of the computer. It's plotting and coming up with the highlights and logistics and choreography that's time-consuming. Generally, the writing takes a week per, but that's not including lots of thinking time beforehand. I'm generally trying to work on several books at a time. Simpsons books take at least twice, sometimes three times as long.

Then, yes, it goes to the editor and we fight over what needs fixing, then I revise. Sometimes it's almost nothing, sometimes it's a huge damn deal and I'm essentially starting over.

Gail

stealthwise

01-20-2006, 04:48 PM

Since you're here Gail, let's take over this board too! We can annex it and Luxembourg like nobody's business! :)

Rik Levins

01-20-2006, 08:44 PM

Back in the Eighties, I used to write and draw a superheroine comic called Dragonfly, published through AC Comics. I also wrote some other books for AC. Actually writing down the script took only a couple of hours in most cases, but plotting out the story in my head took a week or more.
Sometimes my wife would come home from work to find me sprawled on the sofa staring out the window, and would angrily demand to know why I wasn't working. I'd protest that I WAS working, but she never seemed to believe me.

Gail, just FYI you are one of my must-buy writers along with a very few others (like that Busiek guy--if you HAD to leave, I'm at least glad he's going to be coming on board).

The Shadow

01-20-2006, 09:24 PM

It varies a lot, but most of the time spent on a script isn't in front of the computer. It's plotting and coming up with the highlights and logistics and choreography that's time-consuming. Generally, the writing takes a week per, but that's not including lots of thinking time beforehand. I'm generally trying to work on several books at a time. Simpsons books take at least twice, sometimes three times as long.

Then, yes, it goes to the editor and we fight over what needs fixing, then I revise. Sometimes it's almost nothing, sometimes it's a huge damn deal and I'm essentially starting over.

Gail
Thanks!

BoP #90 just hit the stands... how far in advance do you work? Are you working on 110 now or 92?

PatrickG

01-20-2006, 09:57 PM

Gail, I think you forgot...

Bizarro am a woman.

Cam63

01-21-2006, 12:44 AM

This is all terrible, we are terrible.

...and you smell funny too !

ForEverAncien

01-21-2006, 01:32 AM

Whoa...and this thread has gone where? :confused: ;) :rolleyes: :)

Calamas

01-21-2006, 10:06 AM

Better than where it started.

.

YoGo

01-21-2006, 12:41 PM

Whoa...and this thread has gone where? :confused: ;) :rolleyes: :)

Ah....the first symptom that it has been touched by YABSers.

Lurker

01-21-2006, 01:59 PM

Better than where it started.

.

Yep, not bad Barbarian Horde, not bad at all.

TJ Shoun

01-22-2006, 11:00 PM

Apparently I was one of the few that dug For Tomorrow -- I loved it, the entire of theme of faith and how Azz used it to play off Supes' iconic status, in particular, resonated with me. And hell, who doesn't get fanboy wood over Jim Lee drawing DC's big guns?

So I can honestly say I prefered their run to Simone/Byrne but I was still disappointed when I found out they were leaving. I'm a hardcore Byrne-victim from way back, so I love anything he does and Gail's writing has been more light-hearted than Rucka's Adventures (which I like too -- but for different reasons) and miles better than Verheiden's over-the-top boyscout characterization and water-treading in Superman.

To be honest though, the "And sure enough, some guy was going to take it away" line did give me pause and I wondered if it was multi-layered intentionally or if I was reading too much into things. Which, in all fairness is the first time I've done that during her entire run.

But if Gail says no, fair enough.

For what it's worth, I love the scene of Supes beating the speeding bullet. Cool. :)

And some of "more zealous" Byrne fans than myself were bitching about Nelson basically redrawing JB's pencils but overall I think they looked great together.

Caped Crusader

01-23-2006, 03:37 PM

Wow. I've never visited this forum before, but a friend of mine sent me an e-mail with a link to this thread, telling me I just had to see it.

First thing's first, I guess. I am definitely a huge fan of Gail Simone's work. I think she's a tremendous writer, and I loved her efforts on this title. We all like different stuff, though, and that's part of what makes life interesting, so no big deal.

It's kind of sad to see someone accusing this author of pushing an agenda through this book, though. First of all, if someone was attempting to subject readers to raging feminism, would using Superman villains really by the way to go about it? Secondly, and more importantly, does this mean no writer should ever bother to inject a comic book with any sort of feminist message? Because I honestly don't see most male comic book readers as the kind of guys who would feel threatened by strong, independent female characters. Well, just as long as they're not expected to ask them out on a date. :D

In all seriousness, though, should the fact that women, as just one example, still earn 10-25% less than men in the workplace be off-limits in superhero stories? If other areas of bigotry - like racism, for example - can be tackled, then why should a bit of social commentary in favor of parity among men and women be met with such derision?

Hey, we're guys, and we don't care about that stuff. Uh, no. Sorry, but I'm a twenty-eight-year-old male who's been reading comics since I was old enough to hold them in my hands, and that sort of message wouldn't bother me at all. I would much rather see a message of equality, one that is positive for both young and old readers, than listen to someone complain about a perceived "feminist agenda". Other than calling into some talk radio show, I'm not sure where one finds an audience for that sort of rant.

Gail Simone

01-23-2006, 07:29 PM

Rik Levins

01-23-2006, 09:17 PM

That's very nice of you, Rik!

but wait a minute, it only took you a couple hours to write a script? May I ask how? That seems INSANE fast!

Gail

Heh. Well, it took a week or more to actually plan out the issue, but everything stayed in my head until I had it all figured out. Then it didn't take long to scrawl it down on paper (with an actual ball point pen--this was the Eighties, after all).

Too, it helps it you are also the person DRAWING the book. So, for example, a three-page fight scene is written as, "three page fight scene". I already knew exactly how the fight would actually be choreographed.
Likewise a "quiet" scene. I knew, for instance, that I wanted to have the Scarlet Scorpion break into Nancy Arazello (Dragonfly's) apartment, and they'd have a confrontation. All I'd write down is "Scorp/D-Fly, apartment scene, two pages." Then when I was drawing it I put in the angry exchanges, reconciliation scene, the two of them drinking coffee afterward, yadda yadda.
http://www.riverwalk.netfirms.com/HTML/dragonfly.htm

Finally, of course, none of what I wrote was anywhere near the level of your own writing, so of course it took less time. /shameless butt-kissing. :o

PatrickG

01-23-2006, 10:31 PM

That's very nice of you, Rik!

but wait a minute, it only took you a couple hours to write a script? May I ask how? That seems INSANE fast!

Gail

It takes me five or six and I average about a page and a half to two pages of script for every story page.

Getting the idea and working through the plotting is the more elusive part for me. I tend to use writers I know as sounding boards (or have in the past) and most of the time spent here is my ideas getting shot down for being too much like something I've never even read.

Then, in most cases, I divide six 8.5" x 11" sheets of paper into quarters and break the story using stick figures or rough sketches. This takes an hour or so.

Then it's a matter of transcribing my sketches into a script. The formatting takes most of the time as I tend to write about five to eight pages of prose an hour (which is more dense than script but less formatted). That's not bad
for a guy who refuses to type with more than two fingers, I guess. It's interesting here because no matter how loose my sketches are, the script becomes a matter of deciding what details to include and how to open the artist up creatively. I'm probably more at the mercy of the artist than most people because I never share my pencil layouts and if they don't get terms like "3/4ths perspective" or "Widescreen" whatnot, I'm screwed.

That and people tend to vanish off the face of the earth when I talk to them about submissions. I don't mean evasive, either. I mean... One guy vanished for two days. Missed his convention panels and everything.

Occasionally, I'll get an editor bring up something I handed in two years ago but by then, it's like being reminded of my baby pictures. And it's always in this hushed, conspiratorial tone like they shouldn't even be talking to me.

I get really frustrated because my ideas get backed up and start to intermingle when I'm not writing. Atory about cowboys melds with a story about WWI and a story about gorillas. If the ideas gestate too long, they go rotten. And because I have this weird reverse stage fright thing, I find myself unable to write unless it's for an audience. So then, I freak out people by writing stories and passing them out to my friends over dinner or e-mailing them to acquaintances. Then, disgusted, I destroy my writing. I think I've even set fire to it before at least once although it's generally just a few mouse clicks.

stealthwise

01-23-2006, 10:47 PM

Watchman

01-23-2006, 11:05 PM

Bedlam66

01-23-2006, 11:15 PM

It's okay, I think he just misinterpreted a little, I'm not trying to roast the guy!

But I already miss Superman, DAMMIT! :)

Gail

Well I can't wait for Johns run.
That said I really hope you get a chance to write Superman angain someday without having the weight of a company wide crossover hanging above your head. I've enjoyed your version of the man of steel alot.

PatrickG

01-23-2006, 11:46 PM

Since we're on the topic, what do you guys do with scripts that don't get drawn?

I've tried several times to write a comic script, but usually end up scrapping it because I simply have no way for the story to get, well, realized. The biggest problem being that I have a ton of ideas and will never get them down the way I'd like them. I write prose on occasion but I think much more visually and think that my brain has become hardwired to produce stories in a much more graphic way. The story beats come in panels, probably the result of reading about ten times more comics than novels/short stories. :)

Well, I used to have enough pull/haggling skill to show them to some editors. Most of those leads have dried up. The last MAJOR response I got was from an editor who told me that he needed something, ANYTHING more than a script, even if I drew stick figures myself.

I spent several hundred last year putting together a five page sample. So far, I've managed to get a couple of rejections with that.

On the upside, I've dug around and found some promising leads that I could use to put together a better looking comic for a couple hundred less.

I'd still need a few hundred to pull anything else off and that's tricky as a fulltime student, particularly if I want to make any cons this year.

Finding a co-collaborator who will work for free is tricky as a writer. And, honestly, I've found that good artists will often write for themselves, even if their writing skills are lacking, rather than look for a writer who would work for little or nothing.

I had an unusually charmed start. At 20, I had three pro artists who had worked for the big two discussing collaborations with me (one of whom did some lovely design sketches) and at least one pro writer pimping me out to his editors. I was getting advice from thirty or so pros. I was in semi-regular contact with editors. I didn't take advantage of any of those opportunities like I should have and I had no clue what I was doing.

Now, I can't seem to even get a pulse from anybody without tossing out a few benjamins -- and I only make a little over minimum wage at my day job.

The upside is, I've learned a lot of the fundamentals of the business. I know how coloring works. I know what it takes to prep a comic for print. I have a better feel for what I need to do for a script.

PatrickG

01-23-2006, 11:58 PM

And how do you manage to make it fit into a 22 page issue everytime?

I used to draw comics (as a personal hobby, I tried to make it a business, don't ask), and I'd always have issues with random numbers of pages.

Like with all writing, it helps if you know where you're going to end up.

I imagine more experienced types can improv 22 pages. There's a feel and a rhythm that I can imagine somebody with lots of experience getting into.

When I do my thumbnails, I usually start off with my opening scene and my last page (which tends to be a splash). From there, it's all about breaking the story. Figure out what moments your characters simply MUST have. Figure out the things you have to show your audience for it to make sense.

I generally have two or three exchanges of dialogue that simply dawn on me by the time I'm doing the thumbnails. I know they have to fit somewhere between the beginning and the end and I try to find a place for them that makes sense.

You may have a great idea for a conversation between two characters that, paced naturally, will take 3 pages. Then, in the end, you may realize that in order to cover the ground you have to for that issue, you don't HAVE three pages left. So you then have to find a way to get the same point across in one page.

A good ground rule is not to exceed 9 panels per page. 5-7 is ideal, IMO. You can fit, I think, around twenty five words in a balloon and around twelve balloons on a page before you start REALLY crowding out the art badly. You can play around more with this if you have a good relationship with the artist and you have a firm grasp of the technical abilities of everyone involved. But this is generally good in terms of the average page, I think.

My old comic retailer got a comic published once. It was a sci-fi comedy. His script was too wordy and so his editor cut the punchlines to every joke!!! Never seen it but I heard it made absolutely ZERO sense.

Agentum

01-24-2006, 12:36 AM

In all seriousness, though, should the fact that women, as just one example, still earn 10-25% less than men in the workplace be off-limits in superhero stories? If other areas of bigotry - like racism, for example - can be tackled, then why should a bit of social commentary in favor of parity among men and women be met with such derision?

Hey, we're guys, and we don't care about that stuff. Uh, no. Sorry, but I'm a twenty-eight-year-old male who's been reading comics since I was old enough to hold them in my hands, and that sort of message wouldn't bother me at all. I would much rather see a message of equality, one that is positive for both young and old readers, than listen to someone complain about a perceived "feminist agenda". Other than calling into some talk radio show, I'm not sure where one finds an audience for that sort of rant.

But all things has it's place, it would not be good if the writer tries to push his personal politics and religios belifs on you in every book hes writing.
I guess as long as we are 90% men that read and comicbooks it is going to be more like we in general sees the world.
But there are other media that is the oposite, like romance books and such thing there 90% women are the readers.
I have often wonder why everything has to be equal (not sallarys or rights), it is never going to be equal men and women reading superhero comics.
Some people even try to force children of both genders to play with the same toys thinking this will make the world more equal, this is stupid i think, give them free choise instead.
A bit off topic...

stealthwise

01-24-2006, 12:37 AM

The funny thing is that I'd just like to work with an at least semi-talented artist to make stories, but I don't care if they get published. Not at this point.

I wrote a short story for my fiance last year for Xmas and she loved it to pieces. And it really worked as a short prose work, but I have a ton of other ideas that just don't quite work in that medium, at least, not with the cool tidbits I want to put in them. I'm probably far too influenced by Moore, Gaiman, Morrison, etc, in that I'm packed to the brim with (what I feel are) cool, visually gripping ideas.

Part of it is the desire to have a really big ass spaceship or something spanning the page, sprawled out in full-colour glory, and part of it is being an egotistical bastard who thinks that his own ideas can't be fully realized unless they're drawn the way that I'd like. I can't draw for shite, and there are some certain things (like comedic beats between panels) that can probably only be done to my satisfaction in comic form.

If I could find someone to draw the stuff I want, and could simply have the finished products in my hands to share with family and friends, I'd be satisfied right now.

PatrickG

01-24-2006, 12:56 AM

Go to digitalwebbing.

Place an ad in their collaborations forum.

Explain that you just want an artist to practice with for now.

You might get some bites. I won't speak for the QUALITY you'll get with an offer like that but you might get a few.

stealthwise

01-24-2006, 09:41 AM

That's actually a pretty good idea Patrick. I had linked to that site once, but found it very competitive for getting artists, but I suppose that it couldn't hurt. Thanks.

Calamas

01-24-2006, 12:46 PM

. . . I knew, for instance, that I wanted to have the Scarlet Scorpion break into Nancy Arazello (Dragonfly's) apartment, and they'd have a confrontation. All I'd write down is "Scorp/D-Fly, apartment scene, two pages." Then when I was drawing it I put in the angry exchanges, reconciliation scene, the two of them drinking coffee afterward, yadda yadda.
http://www.riverwalk.netfirms.com/HTML/dragonfly.htm
Ric, I vaguely remember that scene from back when I bought everything. I seem to remember liking it, that it was definitely better than the rest of the AC line, which was generally exploitation; heavy on titillation, zero in content. Your work lacked the polish of the stuff being produced by the Big 2, yet was still just as good as some of their product. Forgive my lack of knowledge as I really don’t follow the independent scene anymore, but do you still pursue it? Again, I’m looking back through a hazy memory, but I thought you had a lot to offer.

Rik Levins

01-24-2006, 01:05 PM

Thanks.

I moved on to Marvel in '89, did some Avengers and She-Hulk, then was regular penciller on Captain America for three years. Didn't do any writing, though Mark Gruenwald did incorporate some of my suggestions into the storylines. Following that I worked for Valiant, doing X-O Manowar and H.A.R.D. Corps for a year or so. But I've been out of comics since the mid-Nineties, and now teach computer graphics at a local college.
...although lately I HAVE been toying with the idea of doing an online comic, just to get back into good old-fashioned drawing on paper again...

Calamas

01-24-2006, 01:36 PM

Ah, that explains it. Your move coincided with the period where I went from buying everything to still buying but no longer having the time to read it. That particular stupidity went on for a couple of years, until I woke up and realized what a waste it was. Now I buy what I like, speculate on things that I might like, occasionally take a chance on something hyped heavily; and that’s it.

OTOH, I own some of your Marvel work. I just haven’t read it. Maybe one day.

stealthwise

01-24-2006, 03:00 PM

Rik Levins

01-24-2006, 03:53 PM

Want to work with a writer again? :D

I kid. I kid.

Well, if Gail ever wants to write an online comic....

PatrickG

01-24-2006, 06:44 PM

That art is really quite nice.

My artist on my pitch has a similarly old school style. (His career overlaps chronolpgically with yours.)

However, his inks were so heavy that most of the more modern style colorists I talked to didn't really know what to do with it. His line thickness was huge and the art wasn't really open enough for much rendering. So I went with flat colors and supplied the colorist with some 1970s samples as reference.

I'd really like to see your work with a modern colorist. It's open enough that there's room for some airbrushing effects.

If you ever think about getting back into print comics, PM me and I'll be happy to discuss pagerates and percentages. I'm open to collaboration.

Agentum

01-25-2006, 12:44 AM

Thanks.

Following that I worked for Valiant, doing X-O Manowar and H.A.R.D. Corps for a year or so.
Oh, the first 20 issues or so of Hard Corps is very good comics.

666MasterOfPuppets

01-25-2006, 10:05 AM

Heck no , Austen run was so bloody awful and rubbish and makes no sense with so many loose ends you wouldn't know where to begin.

Opening arc of Austin - Doomsday loose in metropolis
Closing arc of Austin - Doomsday still running loose with Gog , Preus and god knows what else.

A run doesn't have to tie all the loose ends. I mean, those loose ends can be used in a later run, with anoher writer.

Who knows? We might be seeing Doomsday one of these days.

And Gail, I enjoyed your run. Looking forward to the VU Special.

666MasterOfPuppets

01-25-2006, 10:27 AM

Apparently I was one of the few that dug For Tomorrow -- I loved it, the entire of theme of faith and how Azz used it to play off Supes' iconic status, in particular, resonated with me. And hell, who doesn't get fanboy wood over Jim Lee drawing DC's big guns?

So I can honestly say I prefered their run to Simone/Byrne but I was still disappointed when I found out they were leaving. I'm a hardcore Byrne-victim from way back, so I love anything he does and Gail's writing has been more light-hearted than Rucka's Adventures (which I like too -- but for different reasons) and miles better than Verheiden's over-the-top boyscout characterization and water-treading in Superman.

I also have to say that I liked more For Tomorrow than Gail's run (in fact, I loved. But I think this is no longer a secret, given how many times I've said it in this board). But hey, Gail's run was also awesome, so I don't complain. I also loved the whole Ruin thing in Adventures. Rucka had an excellent run.

And I happen to like Verheiden's run. Very much. But then again, it's just a matter of tastes.

And some of "more zealous" Byrne fans than myself were bitching about Nelson basically redrawing JB's pencils but overall I think they looked great together.

That was bad, very bad in my opinion. However, I liked more Byrne's art in the eighties.

Rik Levins

01-25-2006, 07:27 PM

That art is really quite nice.

Thank you. Although it was done twenty years ago, so it looks pretty amateurish to me now. I mostly put it in there to show how a sequence could be a lot more complex than the script would suggest--IF the guy drawing it was the same person writing it.
Gail, of course, has to script for other artists, and so can't get away with just scribbling, 'apartment scene'.

...well, actually, if it's Byrne she's scripting for, she probably could...

I'd really like to see your work with a modern colorist. It's open enough that there's room for some airbrushing effects.

Okay. Here's (http://www.riverwalk.netfirms.com/IMAGES/wizardblue.jpg) something more recent, colored in Photoshop.

And here's (http://www.riverwalk.netfirms.com/IMAGES/superman.jpg) a black-and-white drawing from about ten years ago, just to compare line weights. This was from a series of Superman/Batman trading cards I did for DC in the mid-Nineties. I have the finished (colored) card around here somewhere, but I don't think I could find it now.

Okay. Enough thread hijack, We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion of Gail Simone's writing.

666MasterOfPuppets

01-25-2006, 07:42 PM

Okay. Here's (http://www.riverwalk.netfirms.com/IMAGES/wizardblue.jpg) something more recent, colored in Photoshop.

Really cool. Is he a character you created? Or you just drew him for the heck of it?

And here's (http://www.riverwalk.netfirms.com/IMAGES/superman.jpg) a black-and-white drawing from about ten years ago, just to compare line weights. This was from a series of Superman/Batman trading cards I did for DC in the mid-Nineties. I have the finished (colored) card around here somewhere, but I don't think I could find it now.

Cool. Really cool. Please post that card of yours when you find it.

Okay. Enough thread hijack, We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion of Gail Simone's writing.

"Now we return to our regular programming".

Babylon23

01-26-2006, 09:29 PM

Hey, I remember the Scarlet Scorpion. Back in the 80's, I had an issue of some AC comic that introduced the character. IIRC, the issue sported a Jerry Ordway cover, and Rik's interiors.

Alpha to Omega

03-07-2006, 06:54 PM

Well I just read the complete Simone and Bryne run of Action Comics after I borrowed them from a friend. Wow were these bad, I think these were quite possibly worse than Austen's run. Lois is reduced from a kick-ass reporter to a whiny hostage who just waits for Superman to save her from a teenage boy with a gun who flat out states he’s going to kill her instead of saving herself. Superman comes off as a jerk who mocks people after they've through a possible trauma and gets into fights that tear apart Metropolis when his opponent tries to get him to stop. Also I find it odd for someone who contributed to the WiR web page to open her run with Aura getting crushed by a copter. And why is Krypton referred to as cold and sterile?

Onto the villains. Doctor Polaris suddenly has a female personality with no explanation when he hasn't been a split personality in years. Simone wastes half an issue with Bizarro and Zoom racing where she proves two things: she can't write Bizzaro-talk half as well as Loeb and she either didn't read or doesn't care about Zoom's prior appearances showing he moves far, far faster than Bizzaro. The Queen of Fables was okay in her original appearance but here for same strange reason she's suddenly in love with Superman and has some of the worst dialogue I’ve ever read. I also fail to see why she brought Livewire into the DCU proper if she was going to change the character so much.

Damo

03-07-2006, 08:36 PM

First, let me start by saying that I'm a huge Gail fan. BOP is just about the only DC book that I can honestly say I look forward to any more.

And let me also say that I think you're way off base saying they were worse than Austen's. I mean, dang, Austen's run brought bad to a whole new level.

But these were a huge let down for me, yes. I think part of the problem was that she realized she probably wasn't going to be on the book long, and wanted to tell a lot of stories. And the transitions from one story to the next ended up being pretty bumpy as a result.

On to your points.
1) Lois as whiny hostage - Hostage, yes, but whiny? When did she whine? That said it was bone headed dumb of her to go off alone in a limo with those goons, wife of Superman or not. I think how she handled her stalker was fairly reasonable though. She did, eventually, try to take him out and make a break for it. But he was crazy, and he had a gun, so it made sense to me that she scared. It's one thing to deal with your average hired goons, it's another thing to deal with a suicidal madman that's completely obsessed with you.

Aura being crushed (not killed, BTW) works for me though. The idea was that Repulse wanted to eliminate other magnetic-powered folks. Rather than go for one of the male characters with that kind of power, Gail chose to give page time to a female character.

I didn't care for the sudden resurrection of Polaris' multiple personalities. I thought the actual story was excellent, but it needed one or two appearances of Polaris elsewhere sliding back into old habits. For it to come out of the blue was too jarring.

Krypton cold and sterile? Take your pick. Either Superboy Prime is to blame for that error (heh), or the editor was. Gail's pretty darn busy. It would be nice if she had read Superman: Birthright, and, to be honest, I really think she should have for this. But the fact that a continuity error made it onto the printed page was the editor's fault. That's kind of the point of that particular job.

The Bizarro talk didn't bother me. Yeah, Loeb writes Bizarro talk better. Whoop de-fricken-do, the entire Superman-Batman vs. President Luthor run had flaws large enough to drive a Sun-Eater through, and Bizarro is pretty much the only character that Loeb's done a good job handling in terms of personality.

I'm fairly sure you're right about the race though. Zoom is currently crazy fast (or, if you want to get technical, he's normal speed but not in fixed in our timeline). Then again I'm not sure about the current Bizarro's power levels. He was made by 5th dimensional forces, and is apparently stronger than Superman. But the race didn't quite work for me, no.

The Queen of Fables seemed pretty consistent though. She's loopy. In her first appearance she thought Wonder Woman was Snow White. It's hardly a stretch for her to latch onto Superman as a surrogate Prince Charming. I thought that the Queen was the high point of Gail's run, and I hope other writers use the character. She'd make a good addition to Superman's collection of villains.

I agree with you about Livewire though. I understand Gail's reasoning. In the cartoons Superman was involved with the accident that turned her into a Supervillain, so you could almost say she had a legitimate beef with him. But making her a random meta (oh how I loathe metas) took something away from her as a character. There had to have been a better way, even if she was being hurried off the book at the time. And having it turn out that Livewire just happened to be the sister of the kidnapper was the low point of the run.

And, on a personal note, I wish that Gail had dusted off some old forgotten supporting characters from other people's runs instead of creating new characters that (and I'm being brutally honest here) are pretty much destined to fade into obscurity.

Again, I love Gail, but this was not her finest hour.

(EDIT: When I say I loathe metas, I mean I loathe how "he/she is a meta" has become acceptable as an entire origin. It just seems cheap to me.)

Alpha to Omega

03-07-2006, 08:48 PM

The problem I have with the Krypton bit is that Gail references to Birthright earlier in the run when Clark's article mentions Kobe. Bizzaro is physically stronger than Superman but he can't really access it due to the way his brain works in fact it was only revealed when Clark's mind was in his body. And the thing I hate about metas is that it used to take trauma to activate meta-powers and now there just there. Also maybe I read the issues to fast but where was it revealed Aura was still alive?

Damo

03-07-2006, 09:07 PM

Hmm... I didn't read it all in one sitting, so I didn't notice the Kobe-Krypton inconsistency.

But, again, this is exactly what Editors are meant to be for, and it's something that the DC Editors have been dropping the ball on a lot lately.

Gail Simone

03-07-2006, 10:38 PM

Yikes, lots of weird assumptions there...I'll try to get to them in the next couple days, but yeah, you missed some stuff, like Polaris mentioning that Aura was ALMOST killed. My death count is still way in the single digits.

Not only have I read birthright, I helped quite a lot on the early issues. It was my idea to have a Stephen Biko type play a critical role. It might be a bit of heavy set-up, but the idea is to show a Krypton that had both Man of Steel and Birthright elements. And I thought it was pretty obvious that Zoom was faster...although in fact, he doesn't really race at all in the traditional sense. I went over this a lot with Geoff to get it right. The goal wasn't really to win, it was to get Bizarro in the Society. It's on the first page, in fact.

Not saying you're wrong to dislike the series, but some of these complaints aren't exactly what's actually in the book, either.

Best,

Gail

SUPERECWFAN1

03-08-2006, 12:24 AM

I thought Gail and Byrne's run was decent enough. It doesn't rank up there with what Austen was laying down . He had some long term ideas being set up and the action filled fights was wild !

But Gail and Byrne had an ok run. I liked the Dr.Physco and Black Adam issues. Those were the best I thought.

Apathy Boy

03-08-2006, 12:57 AM

And I thought it was pretty obvious that Zoom was faster...although in fact, he doesn't really race at all in the traditional sense. I went over this a lot with Geoff to get it right. The goal wasn't really to win, it was to get Bizarro in the Society. It's on the first page, in fact.Yeah, I thought that was pretty obvious from the way everyone kept saying "Bizarro will join us if he wins. Or maybe that's if he loses. I actually don't understand what he said."

The other criticisms levied so far seem equally unfair. How hard is it to believe that someone who once had multiple personality disorder would eventually revert? Especially when the person responsible for the "cure" received a major power-down a few years back? Not everything needs to be explained in minute detail, folks.

For my part, I thought Gail's ACTION run was solid, entertaining fun, if nothing particularly memorable.

Steel Spider

03-08-2006, 06:16 AM

I enjoyed Gail's run on AC. It wasn't her best work but it sure was fun.

G. Wayne

03-08-2006, 08:48 AM

Other than the Black Adam issue, the coolness of which was /almost/ outweighed by the incomprehensible Bizarro-speech, I avoided Simone's run due to Byrne's art. THAT was all kinds of awful. The arc's themselves don't sound so bad though.

Astonishing X-Fan

03-08-2006, 09:10 AM

I LOVED the Polaris/Black Adam/Psycho run...I don't see how anyone can bash the writing there. I could read an entire book by Gail where Psycho goes around causing mischief.

Now the Queen of Fables thing was kind of dull...and I was really dissapointed with the Livewire thing, mainly because I loved her in the Animated Series and she seemed too different and less interesting and fun here.

So I guess overall, I liked most of the run...just the last few issues kind of dropped off for me. But that first, like...2/3, was great stuff.

Now as for the art...hated it, but put up with it.

Captain Jim

03-08-2006, 05:18 PM

Didn't we just go through this a few weeks ago? Complete with insulting thread title?

Babylon23

03-08-2006, 05:44 PM

I loved the Simone/Byrne run, and wish they'd continued on the book. Other than a few scattered issues here and there, I hadn't read Superman in years. Gail's storytelling hooked me right from the first issue.

Sabrinaset

03-08-2006, 06:00 PM

How can you NOT like seeing Simone and Byrne in Action every month!

Syphre Zero

03-08-2006, 07:29 PM

Didn't we just go through this a few weeks ago? Complete with insulting thread title?Yeah, we did, and this thread has started out with all the grace and tact of the last one. In fact, the same threads have been merged even as I've been writing this post.

It would one thing to take exception with Gail's work and pose her specific questions about the choices she made during the creative process. Every reader has the right to dislike someone else's work, but there is a fundamental lack of respect inherent in some of the comments that have been posted. I'm not going to go bang on Stephen King's door and tell him that I thought Dreamcatcher sucked, but given the chance, I'd welcome the opportunity to ask questions about why he made certain choices with it.

It's probably worth mentioning that Gail gets PAID to do this for a living; DC doesn't hand the keys to its biggest guns to any illiterate fanboi. We are also fortunate to have access to her and other writers who frequent and/or moderate these forums. Starting a trash session is not only just plain tacky, it's rude - two things that we could all do with a lot less of.

I'm not saying that everyone should love Gail's writing, or that forums should only praise and never criticize. But use the social skills your mother should have taught you. I don't entirely care for the new LiveWire, but I blame much of that on my own personal distaste for radio shock jocks. Rather than burn Gail and run her effigy out of town, I choose to simply remind myself that she is obviously doing what she thinks is best, and even hold out a little hope that I might get to hear some of the why. Bottom line: just because you don't like something doesn't mean you need to leave your manners behind. Show some class.