Ray nagin and Pat Robertson... Birds of a Feather [Archive]

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 03:13 PM

Pat Roberton has received a lot of flack (rightfully so) of claiming to know the mind and motivations of God. Apparantly, Mayor Ray Nagin feels that he has been granted this divine insight as well.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060117/ap_on_re_us/katrina_nagin;_ylt=AsUtOvW9Ft18a_jOl24zkKOs0NUE;_y lu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

"Surely God is mad at America. He sent us hurricane after hurricane after hurricane, and it's destroyed and put stress on this country,"

"Surely he doesn't approve of us being in Iraq under false pretenses. But surely he is upset at black America also. We're not taking care of ourselves."

"It's time for us to come together. It's time for us to rebuild New Orleans — the one that should be a chocolate New Orleans," the mayor said. "This city will be a majority African American city. It's the way God wants it to be. You can't have New Orleans no other way. It wouldn't be New Orleans."

Also in the article, Nagin seeks council from (and holds conversations with) Dr. Martin Luther King.

Is the Mayor able to channel the All-Mighty and converse with spirits... or is he nuttier than a Snickers bar?

west3man

01-17-2006, 03:16 PM

Lots of people think God punishes people and they've got Scripture to back'em up.

As long as God speaks in code, people will always disagree about what he means.

HomerJay

01-17-2006, 03:18 PM

As I said in Rita's, Nagin is just stressed out. His city got pummelled by a hurricane and he still has to fulfill his duties as the lead guitarist for Audioslave.

StoneGold

01-17-2006, 03:19 PM

Frankly, at least Nagin has an excuse for being certifiable. He's been through some shit recently.

Alex

01-17-2006, 03:23 PM

Nagin isn't crazy like Roberstson.
Saying god wants New Orleans to be a black city is a bit...off...but he isn't saying who God is punishing.

Brad Curran

01-17-2006, 03:25 PM

As I said in Rita's, Nagin is just stressed out. His city got pummelled by a hurricane and he still has to fulfill his duties as the lead guitarist for Audioslave.

I didn't notice the resemblance until you mentioned it. They were playing up his resemblence to Montel Williams on Fox News this afternoon, though, when they were both on one of their shows. It wasn't my choice to watch Fox News, by the way. I swear.

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 03:35 PM

My state was hit hard by hurricanes, too. Very hard. Haley Barber isn't saying God has a mad-on or seeking advice from dead people.

Tom

01-17-2006, 03:38 PM

Whether I agree with their politics or not, any time an elected official claims to be speaking for God, they've lost the right to ever have me take them seriously again.

Justin D.

01-17-2006, 03:42 PM

Is no one going to talk about how he wants to see a "chocolate" New Orleans?

Mike Smith

01-17-2006, 03:43 PM

Pat Roberton has received a lot of flack (rightfully so) of claiming to know the mind and motivations of God. Apparantly, Gov. Ray Nagin feels that he has been granted this divine insight as well.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060117/ap_on_re_us/katrina_nagin;_ylt=AsUtOvW9Ft18a_jOl24zkKOs0NUE;_y lu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

In Nagin's defense, if I'm not mistaken, he's just the mayor. He's in the same company with guys like Mayor McCheese of McDonalds, so perhaps his words shouldn't be taken to heart so much. On a serious note, however, though I'm not sure of Nagin's personal belief system, if the demographic of New Orleans is as I imagine, this is an example of political posturing. On the surface I assume that a decent majority of the population of New Orleans has some belief in a higher power and the possibility of communication on the level Nagin describes, so his mentioning of these religious elements may help his tarred image in local popularity instead of hurt.

Tom

01-17-2006, 03:43 PM

Is no one going to talk about how he wants to see a "chocolate" New Orleans?
I cringed when I read that, not only for the rather overt racism, but because it was just such a loony thing to say. I don't know if he's lost it or never had it, but the man is not suited for the national stage.

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 03:47 PM

Is no one going to talk about how he wants to see a "chocolate" New Orleans?

Oh, he corrected himself on that. He says that what he meant to say was that "chocalate" is a mixture of dark chocolate and white milk... and they make a very tasty drink together.

AND HE WAS SERIOUS!

Banana-crackers is banana-crackers. Hurricanes are not a justifiable excuse.

Justin D.

01-17-2006, 03:51 PM

I cringed when I read that, not only for the rather overt racism, but because it was just such a loony thing to say. I don't know if he's lost it or never had it, but the man is not suited for the national stage.

Thank god someone else thought it was racist. Kristina tried to argue with me that it wasn't racist given the context of the city and whatnot. She does think he's batshit crazy though.

Dennis K

01-17-2006, 04:05 PM

Newsflash: Some black people can be just as stupid as some white people. Nagin and Robertson are both now certifiable idiots.

StoneGold

01-17-2006, 04:08 PM

Newsflash: Some black people can be just as stupid as some white people. Nagin and Robertson are both now certifiable idiots.
There's still a difference. In that while Nagin might be stupid, he's not a stupid asshole. His stupidity isn't saying people deserved to die.

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 04:10 PM

In Nagin's defense, if I'm not mistaken, he's just the mayor.

Heh. Just now caught my boo-boo. :o

In my defense, God told me call him "Governor".

One wonders what would happen if the mayor of Salt Lake City said that God meant for his town to be a "vanilla" town...

... then tried to back-peddle by saying that, although the cream is white, the brown vanilla beans help make a delicious frozen treat.

Paul McEnery

01-17-2006, 04:11 PM

Well, the chocolate was a bit much, but otherwise I smell hatchet job.

Your man's speaking on MLK day, and getting carried away with the rhetoric. Doesn't seem in any way out of line to me.

SUPERECWFAN1

01-17-2006, 04:14 PM

Nagin will now be known as the Mayor of a city that nearly got wiped away by a hurricane and went damn crazy afterwards. Least he didn't call it " Himey Town."

I can see the signs now " Welcome to Chocolate City ! " , God made this city for us.

StoneGold

01-17-2006, 04:14 PM

Heh. Just now caught my boo-boo. :o

In my defense, God told me call him "Governor".

One wonders what would happen if the mayor of Salt Lake City said that God meant for his town to be a "vanilla" town...

... then tried to back-peddle by saying that, although the cream is white, the brown vanilla beans help make a delicious frozen treat.
Again, there is a difference. There shouldn't be, but there is. Power struggle issues. In that blacks still have far less power in society. So if whites appear to be shoring up power, it's exclusionary. If blacks, it's just trying to get theirs.

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 04:15 PM

There's still a difference. In that while Nagin might be stupid, he's not a stupid asshole. His stupidity isn't saying people deserved to die.

His stupidity is in saying that God felt black people deserved to die.

Nagin = Asshole

Dennis K

01-17-2006, 04:15 PM

There's still a difference. In that while Nagin might be stupid, he's not a stupid asshole.

Sure he is, but I'm not going to belabor the point.

StoneGold

01-17-2006, 04:22 PM

Sure he is, but I'm not going to belabor the point.
Well, probably. I'm just saying it could still be worse.

Royal

01-17-2006, 04:29 PM

Thank god someone else thought it was racist. Kristina tried to argue with me that it wasn't racist given the context of the city and whatnot. She does think he's batshit crazy though.

Well...not as batshit crazy as Sen. Clinton was in Harlem. She compared The White House to "a plantation".

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1511682

She forgot the "Yo yo yo. You know what I mean home skillet?"

jade_nova

01-17-2006, 04:29 PM

The comment about New Orleans becoming all black is definitly racist. Does that mean only non-blacks can live at the edge of town and how about if a non-black wants to open a business in New Orleans?

Edit:

Nagin said he also asked: "Why is black-on-black crime such an issue? Why do our young men hate each other so much that they look their brother in the face and they will take a gun and kill him in cold blood?"

The reply, Nagin said, was: "We as a people need to fix ourselves first."

I just read this in the article. Notice how Nagin doesn't answer the question.

west3man

01-17-2006, 05:04 PM

Sabrinaset

01-17-2006, 05:17 PM

Oh, he corrected himself on that. He says that what he meant to say was that "chocalate" is a mixture of dark chocolate and white milk... and they make a very tasty drink together.

AND HE WAS SERIOUS!

Banana-crackers is banana-crackers. Hurricanes are not a justifiable excuse.

I guess Nagin is channeling the spirit of Jon Lovitz now along with Martin Luther King.

"I wasn't being racist when I said we need a chocolate town! I meant to say, we need chocolate and milk! Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket!"

Anthony

01-17-2006, 05:23 PM

Are you guys* familiar with the history of the phrase? It's decades old and isn't racist in the least, as I understand it.

I wonder if that's the root of this misunderstanding.

* - those of you who perceive racism in the "chocolate city" statement
Not to mention that for the most part, New Orleans proper was "Chocolate City" before the hurricane.

True he could have just said reestablish New Orleans, but he obviously wanted to bring to light that NO is a black city mostly.

Sabrinaset

01-17-2006, 05:32 PM

God told me to post this update.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/17/D8F6M8IG2.html

Mayor Ray Nagin apologized Tuesday for a Martin Luther King Day speech in which he predicted that New Orleans would be a "chocolate" city once more and asserted that "God was mad at America."

"I said some things that were totally inappropriate. ... It shouldn't have happened," Nagin said, explaining he was caught up in the moment as he spoke to mostly black spectators, many of them fearful of being shut out of the city's rebuilding.

During the speech Monday, Nagin, who is black, said that the hurricanes that hit the nation in quick succession were a sign of God's anger toward the United States and toward black communities, too, for their violence and infighting. He also said New Orleans has to be a mostly black city again because "it's the way God wants it to be." ...

Adam Crocker

01-17-2006, 05:43 PM

Your man's speaking on MLK day, and getting carried away with the rhetoric. Doesn't seem in any way out of line to me.

Eh? Wanna run that by me again?

Paul McEnery

01-17-2006, 06:00 PM

Eh? Wanna run that by me again?
Sure thing. Invoking MLK in a rhetorical conversation on MLK day seems fine to me, and so does invoking the almighty in the manner of a fire-breathing prophet-- something the Rev. MLK was inclined to do too.

Unpacking the rhetoric:

"Surely God is mad at America. He sent us hurricane after hurricane after hurricane, and it's destroyed and put stress on this country,"

Very OT. Also, removing the God thing, true enough. Nature is reacting to our greenhouse gas output.

"Surely he doesn't approve of us being in Iraq under false pretenses. But surely he is upset at black America also. We're not taking care of ourselves."

America is in bad faith with the world and with itself -- that's plain enough. But the black community has also failed to follow through on MLK's dream; the streets are full of infighting, and the Powell's and Rice's (and Nagin's!) of this world have taken an individual flight out of the ghetto without taking the community with them.

"It's time for us to come together. It's time for us to rebuild New Orleans — the one that should be a chocolate New Orleans," the mayor said. "This city will be a majority African American city. It's the way God wants it to be. You can't have New Orleans no other way. It wouldn't be New Orleans."

And that's true enough too. The character of New Orleans is down to it being a black city, which is where great black music in America was born. Turn it over to rich white gentrifiers, and you not only lose the character of the city, but you lose one of the most important landmarks in African-American cultural history.

Sabrinaset

01-17-2006, 06:23 PM

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 06:31 PM

west3man

01-17-2006, 06:37 PM

west3man

01-17-2006, 06:40 PM

For those that respect Wikipedia: Chocolate City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate_City)

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 06:40 PM

Dr. King's ideals were based on working and living together. Not designating this city as a "Black" or that city as a "White". Nagin's initial quote... that God wants New Orleans to be a "Black" city... was against the very principals Dr. King stood for.

I will give Nagin this much (not very much, mind you) over Robertson, at least he gave a half-assed, attempted apology to cover his idiotic statements.

Unfortunatley, the tasty chocolate milk analogy is even more mind-numbing.

And using Katrina as an apology for Nagin's statements isn't feasable. I have family and friends who lost damn near everything except what they carried with them from the coast. They are having a hard time emotionally, but they haven't become blathering tools.

west3man

01-17-2006, 06:41 PM

Unfortunatley, the tasty chocolate milk analogy is even more mind-numbing.
Chocolate City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate_City)

Sabrinaset

01-17-2006, 06:44 PM

West3man, are you referring to this part of the Wiki article?

"The album takes its name from the term Chocolate city which had been used to describe Washington DC where blacks were a majority."

west3man

01-17-2006, 06:46 PM

West3man, are you referring to this part of the Wiki article?

"The album takes its name from the term Chocolate city which had been used to describe Washington DC where blacks were a majority."
I'm referring to the fact that it's not some on-the-spot, "mind-numbing," racist, "tasty chocolate milk analogy." The phrase has history and that history puts his statements in a different context, in my opinion.

Maybe that context won't change your or other people's minds, but it's helpful to at least be aware of it.

Paul McEnery

01-17-2006, 06:46 PM

But Paul, let's say that Colorado was hit by some huge upheaval, and the Governor of Colorado said "It's time for us to come together. It's time for us to rebuild Colorado — the one that should be a Vanilla Colorado. This state will be a majority White State. It's the way God wants it to be. You can't have Colorado any other way. It wouldn't be Colorado."

That's clearly a racist comment. What Nagin said was racist as well.
Um...

You do know that all across America, even the North, there are thousands of Sundown or "Anna" towns -- Ain't No Niggers Allowed. Segregation and ghettoization were a reality -- as to some extent they still are. New Orleans bucked the trend (as opposed to, say, South Central, Oakland, or East St. Louis) by being a successful black community that, as I say, launched jazz in America, and therefore pushed black artists to the forefront of American creativity.

Nobody's ever going to argue that upstate Minnesota is Norwegian, or much of the midwest German. New Orleans is the cornerstone city of black culture. I really don't see how you can say that it's racist for African Americans to claim that part of their history and be proud of it.

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 06:50 PM

My objection isn't to the term "chocolate city". My problem is Nagin evoking God to say that the hurricanes were punishment against black people. Especially when so many white people also died and had their lives destroyed.

New Orleans was NOT the only city to suffer. Black people were NOT the only people to suffer.

And I don't care what context it is in, the "tasty drink" analogy is open to any and all public mocking.

Tom

01-17-2006, 06:57 PM

No matter the terminology used, I still think that when an elected official declares not only what his plans are for ensuring the "correct" racial majority for his city but that God agrees with him on it, sorry. It's tune-out time.

Dennis K

01-17-2006, 07:02 PM

west3man

01-17-2006, 07:02 PM

Feel and believe what you will, but for those who took the "Chocolate City" statements out of context, now you know.

Mike Smith

01-17-2006, 07:05 PM

The outright value of Nagins statement is implicit in racism. I think the intent, however, is perhaps aimed at a fear of "conning" for land formerly held by black businesses and residence by larger corporate interests...namely whites. At least this is the talk on the street so to speak and Nagin was not a careful enough orator to sculpt this statement in a manner proper for a national audience.

*edit* To form complete sentences whilst posting under drowsiness.

west3man

01-17-2006, 07:08 PM

The outright value of Nagins statement is implicit in racism. I think the intent, however, is perhaps aimed at a fear of "conning" for land formerly held by black businesses and residence by larger corporate interests...namely whites. At least this is the talk on the street so to speak and Nagin was not
Before I bow out, let me say that I pretty much agree. Context is key, not only in the "Chocolate City" part.

But, it looks like part of your post didn't materialize.

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 07:10 PM

For the record: I don't think Nagin is racist at all.

I think he's a moron.

Sabrinaset

01-17-2006, 07:16 PM

For the record: I don't think Nagin is racist at all.

I think he's a moron.

I'll come halfway there then, Phoney Bone.

My new opinion: He's a moron who *acts* like a racist.

Tom

01-17-2006, 07:20 PM

For the record, I don't think he's a racist. My point from the beginning was that he was saying loony things and wasn't fit for the national stage. I still think that. He said and did a lot of things at the height of the disaster that I chalked up to stress and extreme living conditions, but in the months since, he's said as many or more strange or outright stupid things. For me, claiming first hand knowledge of God's will is a deal-breaker in an elected official.

And yes, I get and recognize the legitimate fear expressed by Black displaced New Orleanians that they will not get the same opportunities to return as certain other groups.

MushMouth

01-17-2006, 08:08 PM

I can't see how anyone would defend this. My mayor tells me our city is going to be a chocolate city because its God's will and that our city was struck by a hurricane because God doesn't approve of the Iraq war and black Americans then I want a new mayor.

EDIT - If he was white and said God wanted his rebuilt city to be a white city there would (rightfully) be political hell to pay.

MushMouth

01-17-2006, 08:44 PM

This (http://www.pamspaulding.com/weblog/2006/01/nola-mayor-nagin-is-losing-it.html) blog seems to have nailed the source of Nagin's frustrations.

[W}hat's true about the undercurrent in Nagin's frustrations is that no one is working together effectively or honestly in the recovery and rebuilding of New Orleans. Black, white and brown, rich, poor and middle class, fed, state, local -- all have stakes in what happens to this city. The reality is that all of this puts into clear focus that only a small segment of power brokers really have control over the final outcome. Many in the socioeconomically deprived communities of NOLA -- in this case, mostly blacks -- are finding out that they are going to be on the short end of the stick (again), with little final say in the matter.

Pity his comments were so ... off ... since this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Rachel Grey

01-17-2006, 09:37 PM

Okay, am I really the only one here who reads 'Chocolate City' and starts having her mouth water?

Still, it wouldn't be very practical if another tornado hit...

Rabid Trekkie

01-17-2006, 09:52 PM

I'm referring to the fact that it's not some on-the-spot, "mind-numbing," racist, "tasty chocolate milk analogy." The phrase has history and that history puts his statements in a different context, in my opinion.

Maybe that context won't change your or other people's minds, but it's helpful to at least be aware of it.

And a particular derogatory term for Black people originally only meant the color of something was black. In fact for a time it was just another descriptor just like white, tall, and fat. However once a couple people took the term out of context it is now a word that cannot (and should not) be used.

It is the way he uses the term that makes it a racist comment, not the term itself.

Jeff Brady

01-17-2006, 10:02 PM

Okay, am I really the only one here who reads 'Chocolate City' and starts having her mouth water?

For a second, I shared Homer Simpson's daydream. An edible city...mmmm.

Dan Apodaca

01-17-2006, 10:16 PM

The Chocolate City thing was definitely stupid.

But the real racism here was in the local news' summary of the story:

"Local business owners have expressed their frustration with Nagin's statements saying that they fear tourists will be scared off."

So, people are afraid that nobody will visit New Orleans because of the black people there? Well, isn't that retarded.

Trystenn

01-17-2006, 10:16 PM

Dan Apodaca

01-17-2006, 10:19 PM

Hey thanks for adding me to that myspace thingy.

Well, you're not crazy or annoying.

David O Burcham

01-17-2006, 10:21 PM

So, people are afraid that nobody will visit New Orleans because of the black people there? Well, isn't that retarded.

I agree. I guess all of those tourists over the decades partied with the music and the culture and the drinking and the dancing and the laughing to hide their fear.

Rachel Grey

01-17-2006, 10:23 PM

Scared off by the loney mayor I'm thinking.

Trystenn

01-17-2006, 10:24 PM

Well, you're not crazy or annoying.
.....................................
So how do i fit in the CBR thing?

Iangould

01-17-2006, 10:55 PM

There's still a difference. In that while Nagin might be stupid, he's not a stupid asshole. His stupidity isn't saying people deserved to die.

On the other hand Pat's talk doesn't actually get people killed.

Nagan seems to bear some responsibility for the mishandling of the floods and the resulting deaths- I'm not prepared to say how much because I haven't been following the issue that closely.

General comment: lots of people talk to God - they call it praying.

The problems really only arise when, for example, a politician invades a foreign country because he thinks it's God's Will or when a man with a TV audience in the millions hints that the assassination of Rabin was God's will.

Adam Crocker

01-18-2006, 07:47 AM

Sure thing. Invoking MLK in a rhetorical conversation on MLK day seems fine to me, and so does invoking the almighty in the manner of a fire-breathing prophet-- something the Rev. MLK was inclined to do too.

He did? Did he claim to know God's will too?

And while you make some interesting points it ultimately comes down to Nagin claiming to know the will of the Almighty to the extent that he has called down hurricane after hurricane on the United States. This always comes off as incredible hubris, if not outright self-serving B.S., on the part of most people who invoke it. Especially politicians. I can't see how officials who do that should be taken seriously.

I do understand and agree with you on his statements about "Chocolate City". Still he made his point really poorly, especially when being more direct about what he meant would not only have not gotten him branded 'racist' but drawn more attention to the fundamental issue that reconstruction in New Orleans not leave behind it's inhabitants.

(Psssttt...you forgot Crescent City R&B too!)