Disney and Wal-Mart Is What Is Wrong With Comic Books

[Nate C.]

There's no "one thing" wrong with comic books.

And it certainly isnt the usage "616" amongst the faithful. As someone wisely said in the other thread, every area of hoobyist has their own vocabulary that you either eventually learn or feel left out. Comic books/collecting and reading, are no different.

But I do think a lot about what can be done to change the hobby for the better (as many of you do) and I think I can lay a fair bit of blame at two of the largest corporations in the U.S.

Let's take the forties-sixties- you could go into a drug store, dime store, etc. and get new funny books right off the rack; and what a lot of people don't remember, is that funny anthropomorphics (animal books) saved the industry while superhero books lulled from the early fifties through the beginning of the Silver Age revival.

Then came the comic books store of the seventies and eighties, and you know the rest.

But you know where I could still find comics 3 for a dollar, even into the mid eighties? Fred's, TG&Y, Murphy's Mart, etc. I could buy ducks, capes, and everything in between for the cheep.

I say that Disney should start reprinting cheap comics, 3 for a dollar or two, and I say Wal-Mart should agree to carry them; if nothing else, kids need to see comic books in the toy section of the store their mom's and dad's do most of their shopping.

Marvel and DC could follow suit.

Hey, it's a start, right?

[Tommy]

Walmart would pull Spider-Man's eye out and eat it. Or perhaps I am getting confused here... Is Disney a group of children running away from their super-villian parents?

[Michael P]

The thing is, I'm not sure Wal-Mart wants comics. Something about shelf space economy, but I know supermarkets eventually decided they could make more money by selling something else instead of comics.

[Ponda]

The comics weren't selling well in supermarkets?
There are 2 possibilities:

1. Not enough parents are taking their kids with them grocery-shopping anymore. They're probably tired of all the whining for Lucky Charms and Ice Cream.

2. The kids are still going grocery-shopping with Mom/Dad, but they weren't doing a convincing enough job when they whined for comic books.

So either way the problem is kids.
Either they whine too much or they whine too little.
Stupid kids.

[kingdom2000]

Starting to think need a "ultra bitch slap the way comics are done" thread.

[sk716]

Walmart and Supermarkets are not to blame. Marvel, DC, and ultimately Diamond are responsible.

It's very simple, Walmart wants low priced product, it's hard to justify checkout counter space to a 24 page $3.00 "kiddie" book that 1.) Diamond won't guarntee and 2.) Isn't even remotely directed at what is supposed to be it's target audience.

All books and Magazines at your local Wally World are "guarnteed sale". Meaning if it doesn't sell before it's relevance is lost the distributor for that region takes them back and refunds the stores cost.

Diamond won't do this. Which is why you occasionally see a comic on the magazine rack, usually Star Wars related, Dark Horse isn't exclusive to Diamond. Neither is Tokyo Pop, which is why Manga occasionally comes through my store. And every register has an Archie Digest slot.

So, ultimately the fault lies with Diamond, Marvel, and DC. Some of the smaller companies could get a real edge by taking advantage of it.

[Nate C.]

delete....

[Nate C.]

One of the things I mentioned in my original post was the toy section.

Let me respond to the concerns of almost everyone who posted. The way around "shelf space" is the ever present "J-Hook" as we used to call them at Lowes. These are the hooks/pinchers that hold odd items on endcap displays. I distinctly remember finding 3 packs on these years ago, and they are a great use of space. It takes nothing to add one to an end cap and they ususally get filled up with repeat products and odds and ends that don't really go anywhere else.

And again, let's hold Disney's feet to the fire, too. It's not like they don't have a stake in getting the next generation of kids hooked on all things Disney.

I think it's time for them to invest a little money in low cost reprint books!

[GeorgeG]

Yep, if you make comics returnable, you would see them in supermarkets, walmart, etc. Not to mention direct retailers would be jumping up and down w/ joy. I would guess only digest-sized comics would work in other places (long shelf life).

[Gilda Dent]

Disney does have a presence in Wal Mart and grocery stores. Disney Magazine and Disney Comic Zone are digest sized magazines designed for those checkout stand racks. Comic Zone features comics based on Disney's hot movie properties and TV series.

Disney's chosen to go the opposite direction with it's monthly comics, switching to high page-count square-bound comics at a premium price. It's basically publishing everything in prestige format, but with twice the content. It's an interesting tactic, a way of saying that these traditional style comics are durable, like a good children's book.

Seven dollars may seem like a lot of money for a comic, but it's a really good amount of content at 64 pages, roughly the equivilent of three traditional comics. Still, the $83 subscription is a bit offputting.

It's a nice two tier system--cheap disposable fare at the checkstand, and more durable stuff aimed at competing with children's books.

I read somewhere that Comic Zone is the best selling American Comic book, so at least that part is successful.

Gilda

[EdContradictory]

I say that Disney should start reprinting cheap comics, 3 for a dollar or two, and I say Wal-Mart should agree to carry them; if nothing else, kids need to see comic books in the toy section of the store their mom's and dad's do most of their shopping.

So, it's WalMart and Disney's fault because they didn't think of your idea before now?

You're right that the cost of comics is the primary problem. But that's the fault of Marvel, DC, and fandom not Disney and WalMart.

[Red Berens]

I'm sorry - I totally missed the '616' thing. What is it?

[Lester C.]

I'm sorry - I totally missed the '616' thing. What is it?

Welcome back my master. You have no idea how taxing it was to put the pirates in their place while you were gone. Anyway here the answer to your question.

To answer your inquiries 616 is the normal marvel universe as each universe has its own area code. In other words all of the marvel alternate universes like Heroes Reborn, Age of Apocalypse, Ultimate etc all exist concurrently with mainstream Marvel U and have their own numerical designation.

[Alex Dragon]

Walmart and Supermarkets are not to blame. Marvel, DC, and ultimately Diamond are responsible.

It's very simple, Walmart wants low priced product, it's hard to justify checkout counter space to a 24 page $3.00 "kiddie" book that 1.) Diamond won't guarntee and 2.) Isn't even remotely directed at what is supposed to be it's target audience.

*Sigh.....* I'm regretting this before I even start...But I guess I feel an obligation.

First up, Walmart doesn't care about "low priced product" as much it cares about profitable product that moves. If that "$3 dollar kiddie book" only had 2 pages and people were willing to buy it at that price and it was profitable for Walmart that's all they care about. Whether comics are a bargain or not or if they're targeted correctly is something the consumers decide on with their purchasing dollars. All Walmart tries to do is stuff items that are in demand and make a profit for them.

Trying to throw the blame on DIAMOND for where comics are ultimately sold makes no sense at all. DIAMOND does a fine job for the most part in what they do. Contrary to what many seem to think comics end up being sold at locations that want to sell them. Comics have been in Walmart in the past and I'd bet there are some Walmarts that sell comics today. Comics are in Target, some video stores, many book and magazine stores, super markets, department stores and other various locations as I type this. I know because I see them. I have no idea if DIAMOND has anything to do with them getting there or not but it really doesn't matter because the fact remains that they are in those locations. Marvel made the announcement that their books will soon be in convenience stores. If DIAMOND is such an obstacle in getting them there I'm sure we would've heard some announcements about Marvel leaving DIAMOND to carry out this plan. But we haven't so what does that tell you?

Whether it's DIAMOND getting the books to those locations or Joe Quesada and Paul Levitz delivering them themselves it doesn't matter because the books are getting to those locations that wish to sell them. I'm pretty sure if you asked any manager/buyer of any store who doesn't sell comics why their store doesn't they aren't going to say "Man I really want to sell comics but the comicbook companies and DIAMOND are fighting me on it!"

All books and Magazines at your local Wally World are "guarnteed sale". Meaning if it doesn't sell before it's relevance is lost the distributor for that region takes them back and refunds the stores cost.

And amazingly this roadblock you're suggesting hasn't seemed to be a factor for having comics in Walmart in the past or present or having a real impact in Target, supermarkets or bookstores that have comics.

Diamond won't do this. Which is why you occasionally see a comic on the magazine rack, usually Star Wars related, Dark Horse isn't exclusive to Diamond. Neither is Tokyo Pop, which is why Manga occasionally comes through my store. And every register has an Archie Digest slot.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I see far more Marvel and DC comics in various locations other than comic shops. I hardly ever see Darkhorse.

So, ultimately the fault lies with Diamond, Marvel, and DC. Some of the smaller companies could get a real edge by taking advantage of it.

If the smaller companies don't take advantage of it wouldn't it stand to reason there's a reason that they don't?

The fault really doesn't lie with Marvel DC or DIAMOND other than they are involved with a product that a very, very small percentage of people has any interest in.

[Night Swordsman]

I merely wish to say, mainly because i have to keep this brief or Cam will send killer 'roos after me, is that having lived thru many of the time periods listed, most comic books stored really didn't take off till the eighties. Oh sure there were some before that, especially in larger cities, but the typical comic book store really came out during the late eighties, just in time during what is now referred to as the big speculator market of the early 90s.

Its not a major thing. It was just a observation based on personal experience. I was able to,in a medium sized town in oregon, able to pick up comics from grocery stores and 7-11s/minute markets till about the early to mid 90s.

[sk716]

And again, let's hold Disney's feet to the fire, too. It's not like they don't have a stake in getting the next generation of kids hooked on all things Disney.

I think it's time for them to invest a little money in low cost reprint books!

But, what kid today wants to read old Disney Comics? Don't get me wrong, I grew up on them myself and wouldn't mind picking up some reprinted collections in hardback... but I run a toy department. I know what kids want and it's not anything with the Disney Brand on it except for a few of the little bitty ones that like Toy Story. They like Spongebob, Dora, Bratz, Power Rangers, Yu-Gi-Oh, Spider-Man (I've said repeatedly that Marvel needs to start a Spidey book for kids and market it to kids), and whatever new flavor of the year there is.

Disney has micro-managed it's way out of favor with kids and they're really screwed when Pixar goes.

[Nate C.]

But, what kid today wants to read old Disney Comics? Don't get me wrong, I grew up on them myself and wouldn't mind picking up some reprinted collections in hardback... but I run a toy department. I know what kids want and it's not anything with the Disney Brand on it except for a few of the little bitty ones that like Toy Story. They like Spongebob, Dora, Bratz, Power Rangers, Yu-Gi-Oh, Spider-Man (I've said repeatedly that Marvel needs to start a Spidey book for kids and market it to kids), and whatever new flavor of the year there is.

Disney has micro-managed it's way out of favor with kids and they're really screwed when Pixar goes.

well, you make good points that the kids are out of touch today with the core Disney properties, but again, that's why I'm blaming Disney here.

Heck, I gew up reading Barks and Rosa Duck books and didn't know they were reprints from 30 years earlier.

I think the same could be done today. Just some thoughts.

[the4thpip]

Walmart and Supermarkets are not to blame. Marvel, DC, and ultimately Diamond are responsible.

It's very simple, Walmart wants low priced product, it's hard to justify checkout counter space to a 24 page $3.00 "kiddie" book that 1.) Diamond won't guarntee and 2.) Isn't even remotely directed at what is supposed to be it's target audience.

All books and Magazines at your local Wally World are "guarnteed sale". Meaning if it doesn't sell before it's relevance is lost the distributor for that region takes them back and refunds the stores cost.

Diamond won't do this. Which is why you occasionally see a comic on the magazine rack, usually Star Wars related, Dark Horse isn't exclusive to Diamond. Neither is Tokyo Pop, which is why Manga occasionally comes through my store. And every register has an Archie Digest slot.

So, ultimately the fault lies with Diamond, Marvel, and DC. Some of the smaller companies could get a real edge by taking advantage of it.

There are spinner racks with lots of Marvel and DC books at all the news stands at Miami International Airport. Wonder if those come from Diamond.

[sk716]

*Sigh.....* I'm regretting this before I even start...But I guess I feel an obligation.

Then why bother?


First up, Walmart doesn't care about "low priced product" as much it cares about profitable product that moves. If that "$3 dollar kiddie book" only had 2 pages and people were willing to buy it at that price and it was profitable for Walmart that's all they care about. Whether comics are a bargain or not or if they're targeted correctly is something the consumers decide on with their purchasing dollars. All Walmart tries to do is stuff items that are in demand and make a profit for them.

You're right, I should have been clear that I meant lower priced for the corporation in general. I am well aware of Walmart forcing suppliers to drop cost on product. There is no profit in comics at this time, period.

Trying to throw the blame on DIAMOND for where comics are ultimately sold makes no sense at all. DIAMOND does a fine job for the most part in what they do. Contrary to what many seem to think comics end up being sold at locations that want to sell them. Comics have been in Walmart in the past and I'd bet there are some Walmarts that sell comics today. Comics are in Target, some video stores, many book and magazine stores, super markets, department stores and other various locations as I type this. I know because I see them. I have no idea if DIAMOND has anything to do with them getting there or not but it really doesn't matter because the fact remains that they are in those locations. Marvel made the announcement that their books will soon be in convenience stores. If DIAMOND is such an obstacle in getting them there I'm sure we would've heard some announcements about Marvel leaving DIAMOND to carry out this plan. But we haven't so what does that tell you?

Diamond is the EXCLUSIVE distributor for Marvel and DC, if Diamond is unwilling to guarantee these "periodicals", Walmart ain't buyng. So, yeah, I'd say Diamond is a HUGE part of the equation.

Whether it's DIAMOND getting the books to those locations or Joe Quesada and Paul Levitz delivering them themselves it doesn't matter because the books are getting to those locations that wish to sell them. I'm pretty sure if you asked any manager/buyer of any store who doesn't sell comics why their store doesn't they aren't going to say "Man I really want to sell comics but the comicbook companies and DIAMOND are fighting me on it!"

And amazingly this roadblock you're suggesting hasn't seemed to be a factor for having comics in Walmart in the past or present or having a real impact in Target, supermarkets or bookstores that have comics.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I see far more Marvel and DC comics in various locations other than comic shops. I hardly ever see Darkhorse.

Really, are you speaking of the Gus Beezer re-issue that was exclusive to Target? Or maybe when you see the Star Wars and Batman etc. movie adaption comics on the shelf. Books-A-Million carries comics, really old ones packed into a really bad fixture so they get bent up. Same thing in various bookstores all over the country. As for the impending re-entry into conveniece stores, I expect to see the comic racks looking just like the ones at Books-A-Million.

I don't know where you're seeing all of these comics, 'cause I just listed all of the comics I've seen out of a comic shop in the last ten years.


If the smaller companies don't take advantage of it wouldn't it stand to reason there's a reason that they don't?

Most likey because the cash flow needed for the initial print runs at that volume are out of reach.

The fault really doesn't lie with Marvel DC or DIAMOND other than they are involved with a product that a very, very small percentage of people has any interest in.

More people would be interested if they knew about them. And yes, I speak of kids, I hate to tell you, if someone doesn't start working on hooking the kiddies again soon, the industry is going to fail when it's last remaining generation of readers starts collecting Social Security in the next 20 years. Who's going to buy them, then? The new readership ain't getting any bigger.

[EdContradictory]

Trying to throw the blame on DIAMOND for where comics are ultimately sold makes no sense at all.
And blaming two companies that have little to nothing to do with comics does make sense?

[Nate C.]

And blaming two companies that have little to nothing to do with comics does make sense?

Wal-Mart-America's biggest retailer.

Disney- America's biggest Children's marketing corporation.

I think they should/could play some role, don't you?

[sk716]

There are spinner racks with lots of Marvel and DC books at all the news stands at Miami International Airport. Wonder if those come from Diamond.


Next time you're there, ask. I'm curious to hear the answer.

[Ed Cunard]

Diamond is the EXCLUSIVE distributor for Marvel and DC, if Diamond is unwilling to guarantee these "periodicals", Walmart ain't buyng. So, yeah, I'd say Diamond is a HUGE part of the equation.

Diamond is the exclusive distributor of Marvel and DC in the direct market. I'm pretty sure they aren't the exclusive distributor to gas stations, supermarkets and bookstores, but I could be wrong.

[Ed Cunard]

Wal-Mart-America's biggest retailer.

Disney- America's biggest Children's marketing corporation.

I think they should/could play some role, don't you?

But what's their obligation to a medium they don't necessarily care about? To preserve something for others? That's as crazy as blaming the fans, and no one would do that, right?

...

Shit.

[jpk]

I'll guess that 85-90 percent of the U.S. has access to major titles by DC and Marvel, either through a comic-centric store or a general book store. Heck, mega-chain Borders stocks comics. Internet-based mail order and subscriptions will get you titles from smaller publishing houses and ensure that readers outside major markets get their fix.

It's just silly to blame a company for making dollars-and-cents decisions about what they will and won't stock. They are in business to make money.

The bottom line is that when something is good enough and of high enough quality to generate demand, people will find a way to find it and purchase it.

[EdContradictory]

Wal-Mart- America's biggest retailer.

Disney- America's biggest Children's marketing corporation.

I think they should/could play some role, don't you?
If they want to.

But you can't blame them for not taking an initiative they either 1) have never thought of or 2) have thought of and decided there was no money in.

WalMart's carried magazine digests of Marvel books for a bit a while back. So did Target. I would assume they don't now because they didn't sell.

[Alex Dragon]

Then why bother?

The last sentence I wrote and you pasted explains it. "Obligation".I feel an obligation to those willing to be objective about such topics to point out that when some people start talking about why comics aren't be sold in places other than comic shops usually they aren't being accurate with various things they say. I feel an obligation to speak up for DIAMOND or whoever when they're being used as a scapegoat in such discussions. It about trying to be honest, fair, and truthful.


You're right, I should have been clear that I meant lower priced for the corporation in general. I am well aware of Walmart forcing suppliers to drop cost on product. There is no profit in comics at this time, period.

And the reason for that will always lead back to the fact that most people have no interest in them and thus don't buy them.


Diamond is the EXCLUSIVE distributor for Marvel and DC, if Diamond is unwilling to guarantee these "periodicals", Walmart ain't buyng. So, yeah, I'd say Diamond is a HUGE part of the equation.

Who at DIAMOND told they're "unwilling" to do anything? Isn't that Marvel's call moreso than DIAMOND's? Doesn't Marvel have to agree to print up all the extra books to supply those additional outlets? Or do you think DIAMOND should take it upon themselves to just print up all those extra books on their own and simply send Marvel and DC a bill?

Secondly, it's not like a DIAMOND ar even Marvel rep can just waltz into a store and just tell a store they're putting comics in that location. If a store isn't interested they aren't going to sell them.

And as I keep pointing out Marvel comics have been in Walmart before and are or have been in other department stores and supermarkets. If Walmart truly wanted comics there they'd be there.


Really, are you speaking of the Gus Beezer re-issue that was exclusive to Target? Or maybe when you see the Star Wars and Batman etc. movie adaption comics on the shelf. Books-A-Million carries comics, really old ones packed into a really bad fixture so they get bent up. Same thing in various bookstores all over the country. As for the impending re-entry into conveniece stores, I expect to see the comic racks looking just like the ones at Books-A-Million.

Are you even basing any of this on facts? Target carries Marvel's ULTIMATE books. They're over-sized and are flip books and I don't believe they have any ads in them. On my vacation in South Carolina I was in a Books-A-Million twice and they had a decent selection of comics from different companies that weren't bundled and old and they were in great shape. They were all current comics (news stands and most other outlets get their comics 2 or 3 weeks later than comic shops). They also had a wide selection of trades, digest and graphic novels.

While I was in SC I was never in a comic shop but saw comics in several locations including a magazine store, a pharmacy, a book store, and a record shop and I believe a supermarket. I wasn't even looking for comics. I live in Las Vegas and it's pretty much the same. All the people who claim comics are only in comic shops and need to be sold in other locations just aren't paying attention. I find it hard to believe I'm just stumbling on these rare places that sell comics.

I don't know where you're seeing all of these comics, 'cause I just listed all of the comics I've seen out of a comic shop in the last ten years.

Some of the places I named simply put the comics in with their magazines so they don't stand out but they're there.


Most likey because the cash flow needed for the initial print runs at that volume are out of reach.

"The initial print runs"? What about all the later print runs? Big company or small, who has the money to print up all those thousands of extra books to have the majority of them come back unsold? Are you willing to pay higher cover prices so they can have the extra capital to print those books? Where are they gonna store all those books that come back? Or who's gonna pay to pulp them? If comic book companies had thousands of unsold books coming back years ago when comics were selling better what makes you think it's going be better these days?
For a short time Image had a deal with Tower records to carry their books. I'm pretty sure they didn't stop it because the books were flying out the door. Basically they didn't sell well enough to make it worth the time and/or effort of both or either party (and this was during Image's heydays).


More people would be interested if they knew about them. And yes, I speak of kids, I hate to tell you, if someone doesn't start working on hooking the kiddies again soon, the industry is going to fail when it's last remaining generation of readers starts collecting Social Security in the next 20 years. Who's going to buy them, then? The new readership ain't getting any bigger.

Hate to tell you but most people are well aware of comics. But just like you or me when we have no interest in something we ignore it. Next time you go to your comic shop ask the person working there on average how many people/kids wander into that shop, look around and not buy anything. Think back on the POKEMON fad where people/kids were going to comic shops to buy the cards and not look twice at the comics. If people were anywhere as interested in them as some people seem to think local comic shops would thrive. Kids in particular are attracted to comic shops because of the bright and colorful window displays and yet they usually walk out the store empty handed. Those comics in Target and books stores and wherever would sell much, much better if it were just a matter of people seing them and being aware of them. How could you think people aren't aware of comics and they're in plain site?

[Ringslinger76]

I think SK had the right idea about retails FOR THE MOST PART not carrying comics.. I have one other point to add.

I don't see the price as an obstacle quite as much as content. Imagine.. you're a Wal-Mart buyer.. not a shopper.. a buyer.. the guy who decides what product Wal-Mart will stock and order. The "comics code" is defunct. You now have NO WAY of knowing what is appropriate for your consumers, i.e. what you can stock that will not make parents go berzerk. Putting All Star Batman, Batman (death of Stephie), Spiderman gets his eye eaten, Gwen Stacy humps Norman Osborne, or Sue Dibney gets raped on your toy shelf makes you more than a little nervous.

All ages books are few and far between and many of the A list characters don't have those books anyway. For buyers, comics are a parent anger mine field. Hardly seems worth it for the money it would bring in.

I still think Marvel Legends is the right idea.. DC should follow that and both should include subscription forms on the back of the reprints they come with. And for the love of Pete.. someone should wear the daddy pants at DC and Marvel and keep the CORE titles somewhat all ages friendly. If Sue Dibney gets raped it should be labeled "adult audiences" or published under Vertigo since that is what the imprint was for.

Congrats to us.. we were the generation that comics grew up with.. it'll likely die with us too. If Spiderman ages with us.. he'll die with us no question. Even if I was a kid who somehow gained access to Amazing Spiderman and thought his eye getting eaten was cool, the second mommy found out it'd be over. Though it does harken back to pre code era comics, I won't get too excited until sales go back to pre code sales as well.

BTW.. SK does know what she is talking about since she does a lot of the ordering, deals with reps, and buyers quite a bit.. I would defer on that point.

[Dreadstar]

The thing is, I'm not sure Wal-Mart wants comics. Something about shelf space economy, but I know supermarkets eventually decided they could make more money by selling something else instead of comics.

This really isn't anything new. That's why there were spinner racks in the 60's. It's easy to sell the concept to the mom-n-pop store owner if you can demonstrate that they won't lose any previous space.

[Michael P]

Diamond is the exclusive distributor of Marvel and DC in the direct market. I'm pretty sure they aren't the exclusive distributor to gas stations, supermarkets and bookstores, but I could be wrong.
You aren't.

[Michael P]

This really isn't anything new. That's why there were spinner racks in the 60's. It's easy to sell the concept to the mom-n-pop store owner if you can demonstrate that they won't lose any previous space.
I should have said "store space," as I was speaking generally about the entire store and not specifically of the shelves.

[Magneto_X]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I see far more Marvel and DC comics in various locations other than comic shops. I hardly ever see Darkhorse.

I've seen Dark Horse comics at Borders in their comic rack. They keep the Viz anthologies like Shonen Jump with the magazines. :eek:

[Alex Dragon]

I've seen Dark Horse comics at Borders in their comic rack. They keep the Viz anthologies like Shonen Jump with the magazines. :eek:

I'm aware that Dark horse books are in other outlets. I said I "hardly ever see" them. In comparison to the number of Marvel and DC titles I see, I see Dark Horse titles far less.

Shonen Jump and the Viz stuff are actual magazines (or at least are in magazine form) , that's why they should be kept with the other mags.