Hypocrisy & Apathy In Comics (spun off The "616" debacle)

[Bright-Raven]

Jim MacQuarrie's points against "616" is that it creates a further insular hive mentality amongst comics fans, and thus alienates the general society from the medium.

There is no debating that, guys. That is exactly what "616" does. And there is no reason for it.

The hypocrisy and apathy in the comics community today - at all levels - is what is killing the industry. And just about everyone here at CBR demonstrates behaviors contributing to it.

And don't you people dare turn this into a "not me" thread. I don't want to hear it. Instead, do the mature thing and accept that you probably have been hypocritical or apathetic (most likely both) at one time or another and maybe even look at yourselves and discover where and how for yourself, and try not to be so much in the future. Consider it a CBR Community New Year's Resolution, if you will.

What is this "hypocrisy" I speak of?

It's when there's dozens of articles and threads about creators being screwed by publishers like CrossGen and DreamWave, and you're all up in arms over it, but if a guy like myself comes on board and explains a similar situation with some company, it's treated as just "sour grapes", "jealousy", or "whining".

What - you think CG and DW were the only two publishers who screwed their talent? But because someone didn't work on books YOU read and enjoyed, well, who cares, right?

THAT is the hypocrisy that is crippling this industry, and it affects HUNDREDS of creators every year. And it's not just publisher - creator relations, it's publisher - distributor issues also. But the majority of us are "beneath the radar" and thus "unworthy" of news coverage.

Personally, I'd like to know who makes those sorts of decisions as to which creators get news coverage and which don't and how it's determined, outside of obvious personal prejudice.

There is apathy amidst the general comics community. If you don't know / like a company, creator, or a book, then there's a very strong sense of not caring. And when anyone complains about something they don't like that you DO like, you all gang up on them and say, "Well, if you don't like it, don't buy it!" Well, guys, if you bothered to notice the sales levels, the majority AREN'T buying.

There's apathy amidst the creative community in comics. Writers are apathetic because let's face it, how can you commit all you've got when you're always on pins and needles waiting for the next bullshit arbitrary crossover to get dumped in your lap and you have to somehow squeeze it in? How can you not be compromised when you are at the whims of multiple editors, writers, marketing and licensing reps... at any given time?

And artists? Let's face it, there are a lot of artists who are compromising their work because of the advents of computers. They take shortcuts thinking when they get to the next stage they will "fix" the problems, but it never happens and the final product suffers for it.

And there is apathy amidst the retail community. If it's not their personal interests or the corporate agenda to be shilled, most retailers won't even carry a book, let alone have the skill to properly market it to their customers.

******

This is really what Jim's really complaining about, in my opinion. He's tired of the insular, hypocritical nature of comics fandom, and he's tired of seeing a medium that he cares about seemingly going down the tubes because either people don't see it, or they do see it and either don't care or have a sense of "what can I do?" and just do nothing.

"616" is just another minor example of this.

[kingdom2000]

1st post!!!! This should be a fun thread to watch for the next few days.

[Hybrid2]

i dot get what 616 have to do with this.

[NickThompson]

Jim MacQuarrie's points against "616" is that it creates a further insular hive mentality amongst comics fans, and thus alienates the general society from the medium.

There is no debating that, guys. That is exactly what "616" does. And there is no reason for it.
Sorry, but there IS debating it.


"What is the 616?"
"It's what we call the normal Marvel Universe"
"Ah right, thanks"


And with that, I knew what they were talking about. I managed it, and I'm an idiot :)

And don't you people dare turn this into a "not me" thread. I don't want to hear it. Instead, do the mature thing and accept that you probably have been hypocritical or apathetic (most likely both) at one time or another and maybe even look at yourselves and discover where and how for yourself, and try not to be so much in the future. Consider it a CBR Community New Year's Resolution, if you will.

So the mature thing to do is decide you're right and then jam your fingers in your ears?

[the4thpip]

i dot get what 616 have to do with this.
I went to elementary school with a "Dot."

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The industry will change to whatever it needs to change to in order to make enough money to continue existing. It will probably be around in some form or another for years and years to come and, yes, employees are going to continue to be screwed over by their employers--just like they are in every other industry out there. I wish that didn't happen in any industry, but it does.

Comics are a form of entertainment for me. And, until it ceases to offer me the kind of entertainment I want, I will continue to give it my hard-earned cash. If that happens, I'll move on to something else to spend my money. This is no doubt the way most customers feel about the money they spend to entertain themselves.

The way I see it, its my responsibility to support the comics I like with my money. That's my job. I'll leave the rest to the people actually working within the industry.

[Charles RB]

Jim MacQuarrie's points against "616" is that it creates a further insular hive mentality amongst comics fans, and thus alienates the general society from the medium.

There is no debating that, guys. That is exactly what "616" does.

Well, if three little numbers used on a message board is going to alienate people from comics, those people are probably huge sodding wimps who will kack themselves when they actually read a comic. So sod them. They'd probably cry and wail if they joined people talking about football and didn't immediately know what "offside" meant.

[Legato]

Boy I could see this thread ending up pretty well.

I have better things to do than get all worked up over three lousy numbers.

[Sharpandpointies]

I have to admit, I didn't understand what 616 meant.

After reading a few posts, though, I reasoned out that it meant 'the regular Marvel Universe'.

After a while, curiousity got to me, so I asked 'why?'

Got a nice, polite answer. :) Only repeated twice - pretty good for a messageboard.

[Legato]

I have to admit, I didn't understand what 616 meant.

After reading a few posts, though, I reasoned out that it meant 'the regular Marvel Universe'.

After a while, curiousity got to me, so I asked 'why?'

Got a nice, polite answer. :) Only repeated twice - pretty good for a messageboard.

Thats what I thought it ment to.

Besides who are we to tell people not to say 616? It is a messageboard and they have every right to say 616 if they feel like it.

If it angers some people then to hell with them.

[Gaz]

Jim MacQuarrie's points against "616" is that it creates a further insular hive mentality amongst comics fans, and thus alienates the general society from the medium.

There is no debating that, guys. That is exactly what "616" does. And there is no reason for it.

The hypocrisy and apathy in the comics community today - at all levels - is what is killing the industry. And just about everyone here at CBR demonstrates behaviors contributing to it.

And don't you people dare turn this into a "not me" thread. I don't want to hear it. Instead, do the mature thing and accept that you probably have been hypocritical or apathetic (most likely both) at one time or another and maybe even look at yourselves and discover where and how for yourself, and try not to be so much in the future. Consider it a CBR Community New Year's Resolution, if you will.

What is this "hypocrisy" I speak of?

It's when there's dozens of articles and threads about creators being screwed by publishers like CrossGen and DreamWave, and you're all up in arms over it, but if a guy like myself comes on board and explains a similar situation with some company, it's treated as just "sour grapes", "jealousy", or "whining".

Where? Show me an example, because I've never seen that happen.

What - you think CG and DW were the only two publishers who screwed their talent? But because someone didn't work on books YOU read and enjoyed, well, who cares, right?

Frankly, you're right, but how is that different from any other medium? If JK Rowling stopped writing, I could care less. I don't care enough about the Potter series. If Joss Whedon stopped making movies, I'd be quite peeved however. That connection to your audience is what you want.

THAT is the hypocrisy that is crippling this industry, and it affects HUNDREDS of creators every year. And it's not just publisher - creator relations, it's publisher - distributor issues also. But the majority of us are "beneath the radar" and thus "unworthy" of news coverage.

Yeah, like that's unique to comics... Independent film anyone?

Personally, I'd like to know who makes those sorts of decisions as to which creators get news coverage and which don't and how it's determined, outside of obvious personal prejudice.
Size/money of publisher, the (potential) popularity of the project, the profile of the writer/artist.

There is apathy amidst the general comics community. If you don't know / like a company, creator, or a book, then there's a very strong sense of not caring. And when anyone complains about something they don't like that you DO like, you all gang up on them and say, "Well, if you don't like it, don't buy it!" Well, guys, if you bothered to notice the sales levels, the majority AREN'T buying.

Um, those are seperate issues if I'm following you. Buying a series you don't like isn't the same phenomenon as not trying something you might like because it's got a lower profile. And it adresses neither. Why should you keep buying something you don't enjoy, and how are you to know about things you might when advertising is restricted (partly by revenue) to inside the comics themselves?

There's apathy amidst the creative community in comics. Writers are apathetic because let's face it, how can you commit all you've got when you're always on pins and needles waiting for the next bullshit arbitrary crossover to get dumped in your lap and you have to somehow squeeze it in? How can you not be compromised when you are at the whims of multiple editors, writers, marketing and licensing reps... at any given time?
Again, film and TV have that BS all the time. Granted the shared universe concept (which I'm guessing you're not a fan of) can amplify it, but there are advantages to it too.

And artists? Let's face it, there are a lot of artists who are compromising their work because of the advents of computers. They take shortcuts thinking when they get to the next stage they will "fix" the problems, but it never happens and the final product suffers for it.
Their fault. Learn about the technology. Use it. But don't expect it to do the work or add the heart for you.

And there is apathy amidst the retail community. If it's not their personal interests or the corporate agenda to be shilled, most retailers won't even carry a book, let alone have the skill to properly market it to their customers.
Capitalism at work. If they aren't going to be able to move product without investing in promoting it heavily themselves, chances are it's unlikely to be cost-effective in a market which isn't exactly booming as it is.


This is really what Jim's really complaining about, in my opinion. He's tired of the insular, hypocritical nature of comics fandom, and he's tired of seeing a medium that he cares about seemingly going down the tubes because either people don't see it, or they do see it and either don't care or have a sense of "what can I do?" and just do nothing.

"616" is just another minor example of this.
The "symptom" is BS. If I call the moment before a commercial in a TV an "act break", or the bit before the titles a "teaser", am I "killing TV"?
I think the overall reason may have merit, but I disagree that to gain more fans, you have to stop the existing ones from enjoying it. It's the "die-hard" mentality of people who try to expand these things. "They'll be there no matter what, so we can step on them all we want if it means Joe Blow will glance at us for a minute" 90% of the time, all you do is piss off the existing fans without acheiving any significant headway with the "normal" people you want.

[Gingold]

I admit it. I have sinned. I have been hypocritical and apathetic. I have used the expression "616" in reference to the Marvel Universe without thinking about the consequences. While I have never accused certain posters of sour grapes, I have thought it. I am a horrible, horrible person. Forgive me Louis, forgive me.

[Crowley]

I don't see how 616 is any loonier that explaining Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-X, Earth-4, Earth-S, Earth-Prime, etc.

or Post-Crisis and Pre-Crisis... Anyone tried explaining Crisis to someone outside of comics?

If we as comic fans can accept men and women fighting talking monkeys, flying, tossing trucks, and travelling though time... then multiple continuities are inherently part of that.

[Expletive Deleted]

"Earth-Two Superman" is slightly more self-explanatory to a newbie than "616 Spider-Man". So's "Post-Crisis." They may not know exactly what Earth-Two or the Crisis are, but they're plain english. One's from another earth and the other's after some big event. The meaning of "616," unless you're familiar with Alan Moore's more obscure works or are already a comics message board denizen, is less likely to be immediately clear.

Honestly, I'm just really sick of having to explain what the term means and where it comes from. Even with a big 'ol sticky thread at the top of my board containing the explanation, it still comes up.

[Crowley]

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

"What's 616 mean?"

"Regular Marvel Universe, 616 comes from an old Alan Moore story in which the regular Marvel Earth was deemed #616"


"Earth-2 Superman?"

"Well see there used to be Multiple Earths and then in 1986, DC had a Crisis (an editorial and story event) which made one singular universe. Earth-2 Superman is the original Superman.The Superman of the last 20 years started in 1986 but now Earth-2 Superman is back..."

[Cam63]

616 was the innings total in an Ashes Test cricket match where the Aussies pulverised the Poms some years back I think.

[Gingold]

616 was the innings total in an Ashes Test cricket match where the Aussies pulverised the Poms some years back I think.

Please explain what "Ashes" and "Poms" are. You're alienating new readers, damnit.

[Lester C.]

I posted this before but in all my years of spending fifty dollars a week on comics I never came across the term 616 or retconn before becoming a YABS member so fans using it shouldn’t interfere with attracting new fans who will never hear the term until they become an ardent fan of comics and browse the internet. . Also every industry has lingo specific to that industry so I don’t think it just a comic geek thing.

If you really want to make comics accessible again we need to have the White Hens and the Safeway’s of the world carrying comics again. My first comic was bought when I saw Nightwing issue one at my white hen and I think a lot of us bought our first comic this way. That is to say we never stepped into a comic shop before buying our first comic elsewhere. I just don’t think fan lingo is going to encourage or discourage new consumers.

[Cam63]

Please explain what "Ashes" and "Poms" are. You're alienating new readers, damnit.

Ashes = A five match cricket competition between Australia and England played every two years.

Pom = Australian slang name for those fine, upstanding natives of Mother England.

[Night Swordsman]

First off,i am sorry to all who had to wade thru my endless text(i will make this one much much shorter)on the previous thread on the subject.

All my previous points still stand. And several points that have been made on this board so far seem to coincide with my own,or expand upon them in what i feel is intelligent,thought provoking words. Except Cam. :p

I have just ONE lil nitpick:
"There is no debating that, guys. That is exactly what "616" does. And there is no reason for it."

Um..are you trying to force us NOT to debate it on the second thread its been discussed? Frankly,you telling us that there is no debate(ie,that you are correct) is incorrect. It is your point of view. It also seems to be one that is shared by some as well,but also heavily apposed. I disagree with it,and so do others. Telling us your going to start this thread,then on the opening post telling us there is no debate,is just silly. I mean Gail in a Floppy Eared Easter Bunny Suit silly.

and what the heck ARE ashes n poms? i believe its cricket terms,but then again i get confuzzled with quidditch to even attempt cricket.

Oh FINE! Post JUST before mine,will ya! ppppp

[the4thpip]

Ashes = A five match cricket competition between Australia and England played every two years.

Pom = Australian slang name for those fine, upstanding natives of Mother England.
I went to highschool with a Pom Ashes. Lovely girl.

[Lester C.]

616 was the innings total in an Ashes Test cricket match where the Aussies pulverised the Poms some years back I think.

This sentence is a lot funnier if you know that in certain quarters of America Pom is slang for breasts.

[Charles RB]

If I call the moment before a commercial in a TV an "act break", or the bit before the titles a "teaser", am I "killing TV"?

Yes, and you should beat yourself with a stick in shame.

Mind you, the people who make those teasers are killing TV. When the big twist at the end of Doctor Who ep 12 is that the Daleks were the ones behind the Gamestation and the alteration of history, you don't reveal that in the teaser at the end of ep 11.

[the4thpip]

Yes, and you should beat yourself with a stick in shame.

Mind you, the people who make those teasers are killing TV. When the big twist at the end of Doctor Who ep 12 is that the Daleks were the ones behind the Gamestation and the alteration of history, you don't reveal that in the teaser at the end of ep 11.
What's a Dalek? :confused:

[Night Swordsman]

What's a Dalek? :confused:

Giant metal salt n pepper shakers with guns who every evening TRY TO TAKE OVER,THE WORLD! MUAHAHAHAA!

Wait. Pinky! BRAIN! Get out of those salt n pepper shakers! RIGHT NOW!

[Lester C.]

What's a Dalek? :confused:

What's a Supreme Pontiff of the Holy Church of Infinite Earths™? :confused:

[Charles RB]

What's a Dalek? :confused:

Someone who votes for the British National Party and thinks the party tells it like it is.

[Night Swordsman]

What's a Supreme Pontiff of the Holy Church of Infinite Earths™? :confused:

I believe that is Dan Didio

[Night Swordsman]

Someone who votes for the British National Party and thinks the party tells it like it is.

Only if there is nude jello shots involved thou.

[Cam63]

I went to highschool with a Pom Ashes. Lovely girl.

Does she look like this ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Ashes_urn.jpg

[Expletive Deleted]

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

"What's 616 mean?"

"Regular Marvel Universe, 616 comes from an old Alan Moore story in which the regular Marvel Earth was deemed #616"


"Earth-2 Superman?"

"Well see there used to be Multiple Earths and then in 1986, DC had a Crisis (an editorial and story event) which made one singular universe. Earth-2 Superman is the original Superman.The Superman of the last 20 years started in 1986 but now Earth-2 Superman is back..."Two points.

First, I think you're being unfair in your descriptions. 616 could easily be expanded to talk about Captain Britain, the Marvel Multiverse, and all that stuff. And Earth-2 could be compacted to a simple statement about an alternate earth where the golden age heroes lived.

Second, I'm not even talking about ease of explanation. I'm talking about ease of understanding sans explanation. Imagine you're completely new to this whole scene. You know nothing about this topic. If I say "Earth-2 Superman" and "616 Spider-Man," which one's meaning would you intuit (in a general sense) more easily?

For me, at least it's the former, since there's at least the word "Earth" to give me a clue.

[the4thpip]

Two points.

First, I think you're being unfair in your descriptions. 616 could easily be expanded to talk about Captain Britain, the Marvel Multiverse, and all that stuff. And Earth-2 could be compacted to a simple statement about an alternate earth where the golden age heroes lived.


"Golden Age" :confused:

[the4thpip]

Does she look like this ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Ashes_urn.jpg
I think those are Angela's Ashes.

[NickThompson]

Okay, I have a question. I've been watching American Football, but I don't fully know the rules. What does "1st and 4th" (Or something like that) mean?


And furthermore, how is that any less likely to keep people out than 616? :)

[Night Swordsman]

Okay, I have a question. I've been watching American Football, but I don't fully know the rules. What does "1st and 4th" (Or something like that) mean?


And furthermore, how is that any less likely to keep people out than 616? :)

Because at half time the viewer will more likely watch commercials than read comic books.

Unless there is nudity involved.

[Expletive Deleted]

"Golden Age" :confused:Alan Moore? :confused:

----

Okay, "1940s" or "classic," then. Or something else along those lines.

I'm just saying that the two explanations given were uneven.

[the4thpip]

"Alan Moore" :confused:
Not mother? :confused:

http://searchviews.com/archives/Dirty_Rotten_Scoundrels_1.JPG

[Expletive Deleted]

Not mother? :confused:

http://searchviews.com/archives/Dirty_Rotten_Scoundrels_1.JPGExactly.

http://www.shop4photos.net/graphics/258/258490.jpg

[TCJohnson]

Second, I'm not even talking about ease of explanation. I'm talking about ease of understanding sans explanation. Imagine you're completely new to this whole scene. You know nothing about this topic. If I say "Earth-2 Superman" and "616 Spider-Man," which one's meaning would you intuit (in a general sense) more easily?

Except when used it is called Earth 616 or Universe 616.

[Expletive Deleted]

Really?

I see "616 Spider-Man" a lot more often than I see "Earth 616 Spider-Man," by orders of magnitude. And I don't think I've ever seen "2 Superman."

[Jared_Humpherys]

Ignoring the 616 discussion for a bit, and addressing what strikes me as the main point of the thread:


Comics are an entertainment medium. Our duty as consumers to support the mediums we enjoy are to purchase said medium. Nothing more. Even though "Pi" is my favorite movie of all time, I don't HAVE to go expousing its virtues to all potential moviegoers in order to fulfill my obligation to the product.

Bright Raven, your implication is that we, as either comic fans or internet posters, somehow have some other obligations to comics as a medium. That we have a responsibility to not exile other readers, to spread the medium to others, etc. Additionally, you imply that our actions here and elsewhere are harming the industry, and that it is our obligation to stop this.

And to all this, I reply: bull$#!?. We are consumers. Our only obligation is to consume. We have no fincancial ties to the industry other than the fact that we give them our money. I love the show Arrested Development, but if you tell me that I have an obligation to try and save the show other than buy the DVDs when they come out, I'll either laugh at you or smack you silly.

The only people who can save comics are the comics companies themselves. All the rest of us need do is buy.

"So why are we on a comic book message board?" you may ask. Because we WISH to be. Because we enjoy comics, and like sharing our likes with others. But just because we like to do so does not an obligation make. I even encourage others to buy titles I enjoy. Bu you know what? I do it because I WANT to. The moment you place a burden like you're suggesting on us fans, that's the moment that it is no longer an entertaining hobby. I'm not spending almost $100 a month on comics to accept some sort of responsibility for the industry. I buy because I want to buy. I post because I want to post.

I stood up for Mac in the earlier thread because I recognized his passion. I understood his comments on "If you want to look stupid, go ahead." I did, however, take offense at the remark: "You're hurting comics. Stop." I wanted to reply in several different ways, but waived the anger because I knew it was said in a fit of passion. But this guilt-trip you're currently trying to employ with a straight face annoys me to no end.

If the comics industry goes under, I'll miss it terribly. But I'll be damned if I'm going to shoulder even a shred of responsibility for it. Asking the consumer to take responsibility for the industry is beyond reprehensible.

You're a smart and passionate fellow, Raven. But don't expect any comic fan to take your guilt-trip seriously. We've got enough crap on our plates, thank you very much.

[Screwtape]

I've read thirty-seven posts and I still don't understand what I've been hypocritical and apathetic about. Continuity is for Trekkies.

I also don't know who uses the term "616" in non-geek company. I follow writers and artists, not characters. If Neil Gaiman decided to write a Jubilee miniseries, I'd buy it. Few new comics fans (adults, anyway) come into the medium wanting to read all the X-Men comic books.

[Crowley]

Two points.

First, I think you're being unfair in your descriptions. 616 could easily be expanded to talk about Captain Britain, the Marvel Multiverse, and all that stuff. And Earth-2 could be compacted to a simple statement about an alternate earth where the golden age heroes lived.

Second, I'm not even talking about ease of explanation. I'm talking about ease of understanding sans explanation. Imagine you're completely new to this whole scene. You know nothing about this topic. If I say "Earth-2 Superman" and "616 Spider-Man," which one's meaning would you intuit (in a general sense) more easily?

For me, at least it's the former, since there's at least the word "Earth" to give me a clue.
fair points... I suppose, but IMHO Earth-2 seems just as confusing to an outsider. Both lead to complicated explanations.

I think Earth-2 is far more complicated...

[Yoda]

The problem with comic fans who obsess over stuff like 616 & earth 2 is that they assume that in order to enjoy the books a new reader will need to understand every minute detail and every characters backstory.

You don't.

Only obsessive comic fans need or want to understand that stuff. A causaul new reader, if they enjoy the story, won't care if theres a few details they don't grasp. Die hard comic fans cannot grasp what a causal reader will or can enjoy, because they can't be causal readers anymore.

[Screwtape]

Jeezum crow, can I get a witness. This has gotta be the dumbest debate on record.

[Loren]

Second, I'm not even talking about ease of explanation. I'm talking about ease of understanding sans explanation. Imagine you're completely new to this whole scene. You know nothing about this topic. If I say "Earth-2 Superman" and "616 Spider-Man," which one's meaning would you intuit (in a general sense) more easily?

For me, at least it's the former, since there's at least the word "Earth" to give me a clue.

Then how about "Post-Crisis Superman"? That doesn't seem remotely intuitive, and its explanation is more difficult than either above example. And judging by the CBR Archives, that phrase gets used over ten times as often as "616 Spider-Man" (which, if nothing else, sounds rather silly to my ears; the only other Spider-Man Marvel publishes is Ultimate Spider-Man, and he has his own identifying prefix).

[Ed Cunard]

Jeezum crow, can I get a witness. This has gotta be the dumbest debate on record.

It hasn't degenerated into a dance-off yet, though!

[the4thpip]

I also don't know who uses the term "616" in non-geek company. I follow writers and artists, not characters. If Neil Gaiman decided to write a Jubilee miniseries, I'd buy it. Few new comics fans (adults, anyway) come into the medium wanting to read all the X-Men comic books.
I took out a full page ad in the Birmingham Sentinel reading "When Spider-Man 616 Jumped the Shark: Of Spider-Clones, Fake Aunt Mays and Eating Eye Balls."

[Jared_Humpherys]

Ignoring the 616 discussion for a bit, and addressing what strikes me as the main point of the thread:


Comics are an entertainment medium. Our duty as consumers to support the mediums we enjoy are to purchase said medium. Nothing more. Even though "Pi" is my favorite movie of all time, I don't HAVE to go expousing its virtues to all potential moviegoers in order to fulfill my obligation to the product.

Bright Raven, your implication is that we, as either comic fans or internet posters, somehow have some other obligations to comics as a medium. That we have a responsibility to not exile other readers, to spread the medium to others, etc. Additionally, you imply that our actions here and elsewhere are harming the industry, and that it is our obligation to stop this.

And to all this, I reply: bull$#!?. We are consumers. Our only obligation is to consume. We have no fincancial ties to the industry other than the fact that we give them our money. I love the show Arrested Development, but if you tell me that I have an obligation to try and save the show other than buy the DVDs when they come out, I'll either laugh at you or smack you silly.

The only people who can save comics are the comics companies themselves. All the rest of us need do is buy.

"So why are we on a comic book message board?" you may ask. Because we WISH to be. Because we enjoy comics, and like sharing our likes with others. But just because we like to do so does not an obligation make. I even encourage others to buy titles I enjoy. Bu you know what? I do it because I WANT to. The moment you place a burden like you're suggesting on us fans, that's the moment that it is no longer an entertaining hobby. I'm not spending almost $100 a month on comics to accept some sort of responsibility for the industry. I buy because I want to buy. I post because I want to post.

I stood up for Mac in the earlier thread because I recognized his passion. I understood his comments on "If you want to look stupid, go ahead." I did, however, take offense at the remark: "You're hurting comics. Stop." I wanted to reply in several different ways, but waived the anger because I knew it was said in a fit of passion. But this guilt-trip you're currently trying to employ with a straight face annoys me to no end.

If the comics industry goes under, I'll miss it terribly. But I'll be damned if I'm going to shoulder even a shred of responsibility for it. Asking the consumer to take responsibility for the industry is beyond reprehensible.

You're a smart and passionate fellow, Raven. But don't expect any comic fan to take your guilt-trip seriously. We've got enough crap on our plates, thank you very much.

A bit of clarification:

I don't begrudge creators who try to make grass-roots attempts at saving a title(Deadpool and Spider-Girl spring to mind). After all, they are a business, and the creators are trying to save their livelihoods, and things they have put creative energies into.

No, where the problem lies is when individuals fans try to guilt other fans into signing a petition, writing a ltter to the company, getting others to read, etc. 99% of the time, that fan is doing it for entirely selfish reasons: they want their favorite show/book/game series/etc to continue on for their own enjoyment. But again, the moment responsibility enters into an entertainment medium, it ceases to be entertaining.

But not all the blame lies on the fans. Media itself encourages this sort of connection and guilt. How many times have you seen a sitcom episode/movie/book where the protagonists save a local bar, tv show, restaurant, hangout, etc? Hell, Family Guy alone has two such episodes: saving the bar and saving the "Gumble 2 Gumble" tv show(although the latter is somewhat satirical and considerably ironic, as Peter is willing to lie that his own son is dying to save the show, and the irony of how many times Family guy has been canceled itself). Almost all of these episodes makes the assertion that saving something you enjoy is always honorable, even if it inconveniences others. Why is this? Because media is a business. It wants to make money regardless of others Encouraging this sort of behavior makes them money.

But the behavior described above shouldn't be encouraged. A brief anecdote:

I've been a Taco Bell customer for years. My favorite food there of all time was the Chicken Santa Fe Gordita. One day, they removed it from the menu. I was distressed at losing my favorite food item there. So what did I do? I wrote Taco Bell a polite letter informing them that I would like to see the item back on the menu. Would it have been right of me to ask all my friends, and indeed anyone who ever liked that menu item, to do the same? Well, I didn't. And if they had brought back the Chicken Santa Fe Gordita, would it have been right of me to tell everyone they HAD to go out and buy one? Well, I wouldn't.

The principle is exactly the same. If a creator of a comic asks me to show it to my friends to try to boost sales, I may consider it if I like the title. But never have I seen an instance where a title was canceled and a creator told the fans "it's all YOUR fault." That I most certainly WOULD begrudge. Fans of any sort have even LESS of an excuse for this type of behavior.

[the4thpip]

Wait wait wait!

The Chicken Santa Fe Gordita is gone?
:(

[Screwtape]

It hasn't degenerated into a dance-off yet, though!Degenerated, my eye. We brought class to that discussion, Ed. Hold your head up high.

[Screwtape]

I took out a full page ad in the Birmingham Sentinel reading "When Spider-Man 616 Jumped the Shark: Of Spider-Clones, Fake Aunt Mays and Eating Eye Balls."And you ruined the op-ed page for three months. Thanks, Pip. Thanks eversomuch.

[Jared_Humpherys]

Wait wait wait!

The Chicken Santa Fe Gordita is gone?
:(


Well, in the US at least. If the Taco Bells in Germany still have it, I better start saving for a plane ticket.


Or, I could guilt-trip my fellow Americans into sending letters to Taco Bell pleading for the return of the Chicken Santa Fe Gordita with phrases like "It's people like you who are killing Taco Bell!"

[Gingold]

Well, in the US at least. If the Taco Bells in Germany still have it, I better start saving for a plane ticket.


Or, I could guilt-trip my fellow Americans into sending letters to Taco Bell pleading for the return of the Chicken Santa Fe Gordita with phrases like "It's people like you who are killing Taco Bell!"

I think it's quite obvious that it is the name "Santa Fe Gordita" that led to its demise. A name like Gordita only makes sense to inbred, message board-using obsessive Taco Bell fanboys, alienating casual eaters of cheap Mexican fast food.

[the4thpip]

Well, in the US at least. If the Taco Bells in Germany still have it, I better start saving for a plane ticket.


Or, I could guilt-trip my fellow Americans into sending letters to Taco Bell pleading for the return of the Chicken Santa Fe Gordita with phrases like "It's people like you who are killing Taco Bell!"

No, we don't have Taco Bell here for some reason. :(

I usually go there when I'm in Miami.

The Chicken Santa Fe Gordita is gone. Why didn't you do more? Whyyyy? :mad:

[Spike-X]

Jim MacQuarrie's points against "616" is that it creates a further insular hive mentality amongst comics fans, and thus alienates the general society from the medium.

There is no debating that, guys. That is exactly what "616" does. And there is no reason for it.

The hypocrisy and apathy in the comics community today - at all levels - is what is killing the industry. And just about everyone here at CBR demonstrates behaviors contributing to it.

And don't you people dare turn this into a "not me" thread. I don't want to hear it. Instead, do the mature thing and accept that you probably have been hypocritical or apathetic (most likely both) at one time or another and maybe even look at yourselves and discover where and how for yourself, and try not to be so much in the future. Consider it a CBR Community New Year's Resolution, if you will.

What is this "hypocrisy" I speak of?

It's when there's dozens of articles and threads about creators being screwed by publishers like CrossGen and DreamWave, and you're all up in arms over it, but if a guy like myself comes on board and explains a similar situation with some company, it's treated as just "sour grapes", "jealousy", or "whining".

What - you think CG and DW were the only two publishers who screwed their talent? But because someone didn't work on books YOU read and enjoyed, well, who cares, right?

THAT is the hypocrisy that is crippling this industry, and it affects HUNDREDS of creators every year. And it's not just publisher - creator relations, it's publisher - distributor issues also. But the majority of us are "beneath the radar" and thus "unworthy" of news coverage.

Personally, I'd like to know who makes those sorts of decisions as to which creators get news coverage and which don't and how it's determined, outside of obvious personal prejudice.

There is apathy amidst the general comics community. If you don't know / like a company, creator, or a book, then there's a very strong sense of not caring. And when anyone complains about something they don't like that you DO like, you all gang up on them and say, "Well, if you don't like it, don't buy it!" Well, guys, if you bothered to notice the sales levels, the majority AREN'T buying.

There's apathy amidst the creative community in comics. Writers are apathetic because let's face it, how can you commit all you've got when you're always on pins and needles waiting for the next bullshit arbitrary crossover to get dumped in your lap and you have to somehow squeeze it in? How can you not be compromised when you are at the whims of multiple editors, writers, marketing and licensing reps... at any given time?

And artists? Let's face it, there are a lot of artists who are compromising their work because of the advents of computers. They take shortcuts thinking when they get to the next stage they will "fix" the problems, but it never happens and the final product suffers for it.

And there is apathy amidst the retail community. If it's not their personal interests or the corporate agenda to be shilled, most retailers won't even carry a book, let alone have the skill to properly market it to their customers.

******

This is really what Jim's really complaining about, in my opinion. He's tired of the insular, hypocritical nature of comics fandom, and he's tired of seeing a medium that he cares about seemingly going down the tubes because either people don't see it, or they do see it and either don't care or have a sense of "what can I do?" and just do nothing.

"616" is just another minor example of this.
I'm very, very sorry I haven't done my part to "save comics", B-R. I mean, I'd like to be able to devote myself 24/7 to the injustices which seemingly run rampant through the industry, but I'm too busy working for a living.

I mean, yeah it sucks that creators are getting screwed, etc etc, but seriously, what do you want me to do about it?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

But sadly its a pipe dream. Do people get screwed in comics ? Hell yes they do. They also get screwed in other lines of work . How many stories have we read about out of work wrestlers who lost thier money and bodies due to being screwed over ? How many young wrestlers were taken advantage of by promoters who used them & screwed them over ?


I've had people cheat me outta money at work. I've accepted it and moved on. In fact If I sit back and I thought about all the people who did me wrong , screwed me I'd be a bitter angry damn troll of a person. But ya know what...I don't.

I don't let it get me down. I keep going baby. Because like Dusty Rhodes said : " I may not dine with Kings & Queens but I've lived on pork & beans." Whats it mean ? Well it means you can eithor accept your lot in this world or ya can make the most of it. Just call me the American Dream now.

Do people care about 616 or Earth-2 or any of those silly names ? I bet you a lot don't care. I can say for certain some would look at you and ask " Huh..whats 616 ? "

Today I went to the mall . I sit in Borders and looked thru some comics. A few people walked over and we had a discussion. They were pretty shocked by whats going in DC and they collected. Hell I'm sure they post at Newsrama because one brought it up.

But nowhere did I see apathy that I come across at times. I saw intrique , happiness and a love of what DC books they were getting. In the end they told me they couldn't wait for OYL to happen to see what shakes free. It made me feel honest to god good to be a comic book fan today.

In the end what can you say...the industry has changed. Even I don't have no clue whats going on indiependant wise. Because I don't collect there. I started a Marvel/DC fan and I'll stay that way.

If you and others have been screwed over Bright-Raven you have my sympothy. But if you harp on it...and let it build it'll eat you alive. Thats why I try to not think of the negatives so much. The moment ya do..you lose yourself more and more. Hopefully the New Year will see us all more happy and way less apathy then usual.

[Jared_Humpherys]

I'm very, very sorry I haven't done my part to "save comics", B-R. I mean, I'd like to be able to devote myself 24/7 to the injustices which seemingly run rampant through the industry, but I'm too busy working for a living.

I mean, yeah it sucks that creators are getting screwed, etc etc, but seriously, what do you want me to do about it?


Dammit Spike, how is it you're able to say almost exactly the same thing I said, but so much shorter? Now I feel all pedantic.

[Spike-X]

I've had people cheat me outta money at work. I've accepted it and moved on. In fact If I sit back and I thought about all the people who did me wrong , screwed me I'd be a bitter angry damn troll of a person.

Good thing we don't know anyone like that here.

[Vesper]

I admit that I had no idea what the hell '616' even referred to until I read the two threads discussed here...and my eyes glaze over whenever comics continuity comes up under discussion. However, I'm one of the first people to start nitpicking when I get obsessed with things, so I can't really point any fingers.

I think if I cared enough about the Marvel universe in comics, I could probably get around the years of backstory to slog through. I'm one of the fans who loved the Spider-Man and X-Men movies, but when it came to trying to find their comic book analogs...they simply didn't exist.

The only two Marvel books that I've read recently are Runaways and Spider-Girl, and while I enjoyed them, I didn't really feel a compelling need to read each and every issue. I'm a rotten comics fan.

(I will say that I fervently wish that DC had kept hypertime around. It's probably a smart thing to enforce continuity from a financial/crossover angle, but I really think it closes off a lot of avenues for creativity. I loved Waid and Morrison for that idea.)

[Gaz]

It hasn't degenerated into a dance-off yet, though!
*Bodypops*

[Ponda]

I can't imagine that this is actually an issue.

For one thing, I've never heard "616" used once ever prior to this thread.

Does Marvel use it in their books, or is it solely a fan thing?

If it's just a fan thing (which is my guess), then I think it just relies on the politeness of the pre-existing fans when a new fan asks, "What's 616?"

Just having that question to ask is already a good sign, because it shows curiosity and interest on the part of the new fan. If they receive a nice answer, they'll feel that much more involved in the universe.

If they receive a snotty answer, that's not a problem with the term itself. That person was going to be snotty anyway.

[the4thpip]

*Bodypops*
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/AgentMcGee/clarkbootie.gifhttp://mitglied.lycos.de/the4thpip/hh.gif

[Jared_Humpherys]

I think it's quite obvious that it is the name "Santa Fe Gordita" that led to its demise. A name like Gordita only makes sense to inbred, message board-using obsessive Taco Bell fanboys, alienating casual eaters of cheap Mexican fast food.


Good one. I considered posting something similar for a bit there.

That said, however, I think we should leave the joke there. I don't think any of us are trying to deride Mac, Bright Raven, or anyone else for their passion of comics. They are a big part of my life as well. And I would ask that anyone with an opinion dissenting to my own would address the arguments in my earlier posts instead of the Taco Bell joke.

It is not wrong to care deeply for a form of entertainment, but it is wrong to expect others to take responsbility for preserving your passion.

[TCJohnson]

For one thing, I've never heard "616" used once ever prior to this thread.


There is a book called Exiles, which is about people who travel between different dimensions and alternative earths. They call the dimension most of marvel stories take place in as Earth #616 or Dimension #616.

And really, that is all the explanation that is needed.

[Lester C.]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/AgentMcGee/clarkbootie.gifhttp://mitglied.lycos.de/the4thpip/hh.gif

Pip, for the love of all that is holy and just, please stop posting David Hulshof photos.

[Jared_Humpherys]

Since everyone keeps bringing up 616, I'd like to point out the following link:

Marvel board FAQ. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=1117)

Yes, that's right, the CBR Marvel board has a FAQ which answers the 616 question stickied on top. Take that with however many grains of salt you wish.

[Gingold]

Good one. I considered posting something similar for a bit there.

That said, however, I think we should leave the joke there. I don't think any of us are trying to deride Mac, Bright Raven, or anyone else for their passion of comics. They are a big part of my life as well. And I would ask that anyone with an opinion dissenting to my own would address the arguments in my earlier posts instead of the Taco Bell joke.

It is not wrong to care deeply for a form of entertainment, but it is wrong to expect others to take responsbility for preserving your passion.

I agree with you. It certainly wasn't meant as an attack on Mac, who's one of the smartest and nicest posters in CBRdom- just some good natured fooling around.

I guess the 616 thing is a bit annoying, though I don't see it as representative of any serious problem with fandom. I don't think it's any more confusing than Earth-2, post-Crisis, Golden Age, etc., it's just that those expression arose organically, within the pages of the comics themselves, rather than whispered over the internet like some sort of geek litmus test. But, for a lot of fans, it's simply a useful shorthand for "main Marvel Universe".

Bright Raven seems to be saying that comics fans aren't pissed off enough about the state of the medium. Honestly? I can't remember when things were this good. Back issues are cheap, reprints of the good old stuff keep on coming, there's plenty of good books from the majors and indies that keep coming out, graphic novels and tpbs are in every bookstore in the country, good comic movies are being made pretty regularly, the internet provides fans with a connection with their favorite creators that never existed in the past, the media acknowledges comics to be pretty cool and nobody gives a damn if I read my comics on the subway. For this I should be pissed?

Now, I don't work in the industry and I've absolutely no desire to so. Maybe if I did, I'd be pissed off too. But from where I sit, things aren't that bad at all .

[Crowley]

I've always been of the opinion that one of the fun things inherent to being a new comic fan is discovery.

What's Gold Kryptonite?
Who were the Superpets?
why did Spider-Man have a black costume?
What's the deal with Wolverine?
Why did Wonder Woman go through a Kung Fu period?
Why'd Storm have mohawk?

616 is just a new one... and hell if, by default, it introduces NEW comic fans to the works of Alan Moore...

well even better.

[Vesper]

I've always been of the opinion that one of the fun things inherent to being a new comic fan is discovery.

What's Gold Kryptonite?
Who were the Superpets?
why did Spider-Man have a black costume?
What's the deal with Wolverine?
Why did Wonder Woman go through a Kung Fu period?
Why'd Storm have mohawk?

616 is just a new one... and hell if, by default, it introduces NEW comic fans to the works of Alan Moore...

well even better.

I have standards! I wanna be emotionally invested in or intellectually curious about something before I have to go track down the obscure trivia just to understand the underlying story. :(

[Spike-X]

Bright Raven seems to be saying that comics fans aren't pissed off enough about the state of the medium.

How can you truly love something unless you're constantly complaining about how much it sucks?

[stealthwise]

No, we don't have Taco Bell here for some reason. :(

I usually go there when I'm in Miami.

The Chicken Santa Fe Gordita is gone. Why didn't you do more? Whyyyy? :mad:

You know what I really miss? McDonald's pizza.

[Expletive Deleted]

Yes, that's right, the CBR Marvel board has a FAQ which answers the 616 question stickied on top.Yeah, it's a frequently asked question.

And I still get people asking about it.

[Corrina]

Cross-posting from the Marvel thread:

I think that the difference is that the designations for the various Earths had their roots in people reading the stories.

JSA-Earth was Earth-2 because I'd read the books which involved them. There were lots of books that involved them.

Whereas 616 was a throwaway term in one Marvel book that's hard to find and it was never used by a publisher to designate any line of comics. The term got picked up specifically because people wanted to either be in tribute to Alan Moore or to show that they knew enough about Marvel geekdom to use the term.

To me, that makes 616 deliberately exclusionary, whereas the other terms resulted from reading stories that are available right now, the basis for DC's Crisis on Multiple Earths paperback series.

Whether use of it is good or bad in the overall scheme of things, I have no idea. But it seems to me 616 was really reaching on the part of those who snagged onto it.

On the issue of apathy--I care very much about the comic industry. But I happen to think the only real way my voice can be heard is in my choice of what to buy. I've been dissatisfied lately, so my sales of comics has dropped a great deal in the past year.

I do try to use my work at Sequential Tart (www.sequentialtart.com--there's a really great 'best of' issue that should be up in January) as a soapbox now and then for things I like or dislike but I question how much effect that really has.

Marvel seems to be making a money catering to people who are not me and are quite happy to read them and DC is the same way, so I honestly think there's nothing to be done there. I do try to publicize some good independent comics I've read (Nocturnal Essence at www.powerfulpress.com and Children of the Grave at shootingstarcomics.com) but other than that....??

Bright-Raven, what can the average comic reader do, save vote with their purchases? (I'm honestly asking--it's always possible I've missed something...)

[JKCarrier]

There are movie geeks who obsess over trivia and use obscure jargon.
There are literature geeks who obsess over trivia and use obscure jargon.
There are sports geeks who obsess over trivia and use obscure jargon.
There are automobile geeks who obsess over trivia and use obscure jargon.
In fact, just about anything that's ever been created/manufactured/performed has a group of hardcore fans who are deeply into it. Nobody ever accuses them of "killing" the thing they're devoted to. Why do comics readers always get this rap? And from *each other*, at that?

I think the real problem with comics fans is not apathy or hypocrisy, it's self-loathing. A good portion of comics readers seem to be deeply ashamed of their pastime, to the point where they lash out at their brethren for not being "normal" enough (because they fear that they themselves are insufficiently "normal"). That's just sad.

Who the hell made the rule that stamp collecting was perfectly ok, but pursuing a hobby that actually requires you to exercise your brain and imagination is somehow weird and wrong? Screw that noise. Follow your bliss. Embrace the thing you love shamelessly.

Say it loud: I'm geek and I'm proud! :D

[Gail Simone]

I'm out of the loop. What's "616"?


Gail

[matterconsumer]

It's in that other thread...it's the designation for the original Marvel universe as distinguished from the Ultimate Marvel universe (and the associated Ultimate titles).

[Cam63]

It's the first I've heard or read of it too.

A concise explanation would be appreciated.

[Lester C.]

I'm out of the loop. What's "616"?


Gail

It's the first I've heard or read of it too.

A concise explanation would be appreciated.


Ladies and Gentlemen I rest my case. Simply put how can a term put people off on comics when it’s such an obscure part of our subculture? To answer your inquiries 616 is the normal marvel universe as each universe has its own area code. In other words all of the marvel alternate universes like Heroes Reborn, Age of Apocalypse, Ultimate etc all exist congruently with mainstream Marvel U and have their own numerical designation.

[Cam63]

I found this at Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth-616

[Gail Simone]

Okay.

Then what's the controversy? Who cares?

Gail

[Cam63]

'Can't say I do.

...Yet !

[Spike-X]

There is no controversy. Some people just have to make huge dramas out of nothing.

[matterconsumer]

If you're new to comics and just picked up a few off the stand it could be very confusing as the characters from the traditional Marvel universe and the Ultimate universe share the same names but have different titles such as Amazing and Ultimate Spider-man.

Granted eventually one would make the connection that the titles that begin with 'Ultimate' are different but how does one initially choose?

[Night Swordsman]

Okay.

Then what's the controversy? Who cares?

Gail

Gail,the big drama was that Mac was insulting people who used the term 616,and used his belief that people who use that term,and others like it,are causing comics to become insular and unapproachable by new readers,leading to decline in comic sales,and their inevitable death. Myself and a few others disagreed,and debated his actions. His reply to my pointing out that that the term,created by Alan Moore,has been used in Marvel titles,such as Uncanny X-Men,Excalibur,Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe,and Exiles(in the most current issue no less),was to say he is dropping all his remaining Marvel titles. In the What is Marvel doing right thread,his posts are there,and i have no desire to go into it again. I support his right to his opinion,and i can even agree on parts of it,but for the most part i disagree with it,and in my several posts i outlined why i disagreed with it,in detail. Also,thou i critizied his behavior,i never directly insulted him,merely stated how i felt he was acting based on his replies and his actions. I have no ill feelings toward Mac,but i do not desire to read posts from him in the future,in fear of creating another "debacle" such as this. I wish him the best,and all i ask is he lay off the very low class insults,stereotyping comic book internet fans. Especailly since the whole thread was supposed to be,from what i could conjecture,a POSTIVE one,showing the STRENGTHS of the company(and the same as the DC thread),not to become a bashing ground of what you hated about either company. I love both companies,i buy large ammounts of books from both,and i have no desire to CHOOSE which is better. I hoped by taking the thread to here,as was done,the topic of the original thread would become reinstated(i even listed again some things i liked about Marvel,hopefully coming up with different ones that my original posting).

Not all of us are going to agree on one side or the other. I respect the beliefs of everyone here,even if i don't agree with them.

[taintedlunch]

I wish I knew what the hell you people were talking about.

And if "616" is code for "just about the only place you can buy comics is a comics specialty shop", then, yes, 616 is killing comics.

[the4thpip]

There is no controversy. Some people just have to make huge dramas out of nothing.
I hear Fox"News" is planning a series about the "War on Comics." Their panel will include anti-616 activists, the American Family Association, gay Norwegian whalers and Penelope Cruz.

[Spike-X]

Hey, Swordsman? Could you put a space after you use a comma, please? It'd make your posts a lot easier to read. Thanks.

[Cam63]

Shorter posts would be nice too.

[the4thpip]

Shorter posts would be nice too.
Just copy and paste them into 6 decompressed chapters.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Just copy and paste them into 6 decompressed chapters.


That should pump up TPB Sales . Lets see it happen people !

[the4thpip]

That should pump up TPB Sales . Lets see it happen people !
Yes! Let's all save comics!

[Cam63]

We won't be risking our lives or anything like that ?

OK, then !

[the4thpip]

We won't be risking our lives or anything like that ?

Well, it is a war. There is always a risk of gangrene when you scratch yourself on a staple. Or you could suffocate in a mylar bag.

[Cam63]

So many lives lost....

*sobs*

[the4thpip]

No blood for printer's ink! No blood for printer's ink!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Death to the ones wh0 cry 616!! Viva La Revolution! Take no prisioners! *





* I just read that thread and jesus....how can 616 cause that much hell?

[Bright-Raven]

Addressing some of the responses:

Bored and Jared:

You both comment that you feel that you only have the responsibility as "consumers" to buy that which you like, and to hell with everything else.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. I wish that it did. Consider all the retailers who overpurchase to get higher discounts on their orders, but can't sell what they order. Consider all the fans out there who buy book(s) out of habit but no longer enjoy them and constantly complain about the book(s) they are buying.

These are very commonplace people in the comics community. I'm not stating that either of you functions in this manner. But obviously there are those who are, and I'm sorry, but the publishers can't go around weeding out these people. We're here to try to produce entertainment. So yes, gentlemen, it's up to you. When you see some fan at the shop complaining about the latest crossover storyline or about the creative team or whatever, would it kill you to maybe speak up and help them find something they will enjoy if the retailer isn't getting the clue? I should think not. If you're looking for something different and you ask the retailer for their opinion and all they want to sell you is the same stuff you're either already buying or have dropped... don't you have to question their agenda?

*******

Gaz:

me: It's when there's dozens of articles and threads about creators being screwed by publishers like CrossGen and DreamWave, and you're all up in arms over it, but if a guy like myself comes on board and explains a similar situation with some company, it's treated as just "sour grapes", "jealousy", or "whining".

Where? Show me an example, because I've never seen that happen.

I'd prefer not to bring up any specific examples because they always lead to flamewars. Just be thankful you've not seen them.

Buying a series you don't like isn't the same phenomenon as not trying something you might like because it's got a lower profile. And it adresses neither. Why should you keep buying something you don't enjoy, and how are you to know about things you might when advertising is restricted (partly by revenue) to inside the comics themselves?

Ask the fanboys who buy the books they don't like and then come on the boards and complain about it. I drop a title when I stop enjoying it and I seldom return to it later.

As far as "not knowing" about books through lack of advertisement, well, there is no real call for a lack of knowing with today's internet, because any respectable publisher should be able to put together a press release and ship it out to all the internet sites.

But if 25% of all the press releases actually get posted at sites like CBR, I'd be surprised. Each site has their own agendas, too, after all.

Again, film and TV have (compromised writing) all the time. Granted the shared universe concept (which I'm guessing you're not a fan of) can amplify it, but there are advantages to it too.

Actually you guess wrong. I have no problem with shared universes, as long as they are handled properly. I don't see that happening in the comics industry to the extent that I think would best benefit all involved.

me: And there is apathy amidst the retail community. If it's not their personal interests or the corporate agenda to be shilled, most retailers won't even carry a book, let alone have the skill to properly market it to their customers.

Capitalism at work. If they aren't going to be able to move product without investing in promoting it heavily themselves, chances are it's unlikely to be cost-effective in a market which isn't exactly booming as it is.

I've said this gods knows a billion times - my college years were full of bets against retailers that I could outsell the "top ten" sellers during the height of the boom years (1990-1994) with indies of my own choosing. I used to regularly outsell the X-Titles, Bat Titles, Super Titles, Image books, etc. with B&W indies on a regular basis. Why? Because I came into the shop on comic book day and promoted what I believed in. Not what the corporate agenda told me was "hot". Not what had fifty spinoff series to make you "collect them all". The product that I believed in. And I wasn't working in the stores. I was just a fan.

Now to be fair, that was during the boom years and this is a totally different market. But if I can do that as a single person, imagine what can be done if you just said to your retailer "hey, order 3 more copies of this series I like. I'll come in and pimp it when it comes in on book day". I'm not saying go all out and try to outsell Marvel / DC like I used to do regularly - I seriously doubt that even I could sell 50-60 copies of any given title in today's market. But if you guys really like a book, there's little reason why you can't find 2-3 others who haven't tried it who might buy it.

******

More to come.

[the4thpip]

Death to the ones wh0 cry 616!! Viva La Revolution! Take no prisioners! *





* I just read that thread and jesus....how can 616 cause that much hell?
616 killed the Santa Fe Gordita. :mad:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Addressing some of the responses:

Bored and Jared:

You both comment that you feel that you only have the responsibility as "consumers" to buy that which you like, and to hell with everything else.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. I wish that it did. Consider all the retailers who overpurchase to get higher discounts on their orders, but can't sell what they order. Consider all the fans out there who buy book(s) out of habit but no longer enjoy them and constantly complain about the book(s) they are buying.

As consumers we do not control the retail. If I go into a comic book store I can't say: " So ...you ordered 50 copies of DC Countdown and you over-ordered by 15 ? "

What do you expect them to do ? Stand outside the door screaming for people to buy it ? Walk all over selling DC Countdown to people even though your main job is to buy your comics and support the store that way. I have a job in this world and I can't make sure my LCS sells out of everything. As do many others here.

These are very commonplace people in the comics community. I'm not stating that either of you functions in this manner. But obviously there are those who are, and I'm sorry, but the publishers can't go around weeding out these people. We're here to try to produce entertainment. So yes, gentlemen, it's up to you. When you see some fan at the shop complaining about the latest crossover storyline or about the creative team or whatever, would it kill you to maybe speak up and help them find something they will enjoy if the retailer isn't getting the clue? I should think not. If you're looking for something different and you ask the retailer for their opinion and all they want to sell you is the same stuff you're either already buying or have dropped... don't you have to question their agenda?

People already do that more than likely when theres people in thier LCS. They recommend what thier reading if said person isn't reading. Just what we do online.

And odds are you can always say no to your local retailer too. I've pretty much declined books he's added to my pull list like mini-series and one-shots. There is a freedom of choice. Sometimes he'll recommend something to me and I'll consider it....like " Young Avengers ".

*******

Gaz:


Ask the fanboys who buy the books they don't like and then come on the boards and complain about it. I drop a title when I stop enjoying it and I seldom return to it later.

A lot of fans hang on hoping this will change. I dropped Green Arrow at 45# with the HIV Storyline and haven't looked back since. Only reading it in store. But I wanted to give Milligan time on X-Men. I felt he was close to nailin the charactors. Instead he got worse after Decimation and with X-Men 180# that is dropped.


Actually you guess wrong. I have no problem with shared universes, as long as they are handled properly. I don't see that happening in the comics industry to the extent that I think would best benefit all involved.

I like what DC does with its Pre-Crisis and Post Crisis history now. I gotta give props to DC for that.

I've said this gods knows a billion times - my college years were full of bets against retailers that I could outsell the "top ten" sellers during the height of the boom years (1990-1994) with indies of my own choosing. I used to regularly outsell the X-Titles, Bat Titles, Super Titles, Image books, etc. with B&W indies on a regular basis. Why? Because I came into the shop on comic book day and promoted what I believed in. Not what the corporate agenda told me was "hot". Not what had fifty spinoff series to make you "collect them all". The product that I believed in. And I wasn't working in the stores. I was just a fan.

But you were a College kid who had time to go in and push the comics you wished. Thats the differance...you could sit there all day and talk about the greatness of Ceberus. Where as today can you do this all day ? Could anyone who works a local job ?

Also I used to go and hang out at my local comic book store in high school. Because I really didn't have shit to do and could. Those were good times til the industry went down.

Now to be fair, that was during the boom years and this is a totally different market. But if I can do that as a single person, imagine what can be done if you just said to your retailer "hey, order 3 more copies of this series I like. I'll come in and pimp it when it comes in on book day". I'm not saying go all out and try to outsell Marvel / DC like I used to do regularly - I seriously doubt that even I could sell 50-60 copies of any given title in today's market. But if you guys really like a book, there's little reason why you can't find 2-3 others who haven't tried it who might buy it.

Again....a lot of us have jobs and money is tight. I am not gonna be stuck with 3 copies of Manhunter . Just because hey " I can save the industry ! "

A lot of us here really don't have the time to do this. Its not a question that we don't love comics. A lot of us here would have already dropped them if we didn't.

Comics sadly needs more than the store peddler approach. You wanna expand the industry ? Well ya gotta take jumps into where the kids and teen-agers hang out. Not try and keep using methods that have sadly exhausted themselves.

Theres more enertainment out there. Marvel and DC needs to jump into it by god. They gotta go in and tackle the TV Commercial market. They gotta grab the kids thru DVD releases.

Marvels gonna release the comics in cartoons. Best possible solution ? Have the comics series be hyped. Hype the f-ck outta your upcoming projects as the kids watch !

The cartoons...well the cartoons focus gotta damn well change people. You can't put an 80's damn cartoon out there and expect kids thats older than 12 will find it interesting. You gotta speak to them.

Thats why ECW worked...thats why WWF attitude worked. You wanna save the industry...start speaking thier language Joe Quesada and Dan Dido when it comes to cartoon properties. Put out an edgy driven Avengers cartoon that doesn't pander. Thats why Magna and DBZ sell like hot shit now. They don't talk down.

Thats how ya save an industry. You adapt. You change with the times. Paul Heyman taught that.

[Spike-X]

People with jobs are what's killing comics.

[Bright-Raven]

Crowley: If we as comic fans can accept men and women fighting talking monkeys, flying, tossing trucks, and travelling though time... then multiple continuities are inherently part of that.

Actually that's primarily part of superhero comics. Don't place limitations on the medium for the genre, please.

*******

Lester Carthan: If you really want to make comics accessible again we need to have the White Hens and the Safeway’s of the world carrying comics again.

Yes, marketing and distribution are a related problem. However, even if you put all the comics out there on the newsstand circuit, it wouldn't resolve the problem. The reason comics moved off the newsstand in the first place was because of the books having page counts cut to the point where newsstands didn't think it was viable to have them.

Now, if we're going to start putting out BATMAN COMICS MONTHLY and make it 150-200 pages for say $5, then yeah, it's gonna go over. But 22 pages for $3? Forget it.

I just don’t think fan lingo is going to encourage or discourage new consumers.

Okay. Ask a relative or friend who isn't into comics to go to a comics shop and buy you a comic they think you'll like. Give them a list of what you already read and tell them NOT to buy those books.

When they come back to you, discuss their shopping experience.

******

Back to Jared:

I don't begrudge creators who try to make grass-roots attempts at saving a title(Deadpool and Spider-Girl spring to mind). After all, they are a business, and the creators are trying to save their livelihoods, and things they have put creative energies into.

No, where the problem lies is when individuals fans try to guilt other fans into signing a petition, writing a letter to the company, getting others to read, etc. 99% of the time, that fan is doing it for entirely selfish reasons: they want their favorite show/book/game series/etc to continue on for their own enjoyment. But again, the moment responsibility enters into an entertainment medium, it ceases to be entertaining.

I'm not sure which you're classifying me as.

I'm a published writer and artist in both the Role-Playing and Comic Book industry. I've worked with Steve Jackson Games, Wizards of the Coast, Arrow Comics, Ronin Studios, and a number of other publishing organizations.

And since you're bringing up this whole "fans guilting other fans" commentary - how is this any different than when a retailer or fan starts pimping some bullshit event that I have no interest in, tell them I have no interest in, and they start trying to peer pressure me into buying it and start mocking the books I do have interest in, eh?

Because that's typical comics geek behavior.

I don't go around trashing the books I don't like on these boards or elsewhere. I'll occassionally trash creators when they don't meet their professional obligations (examples: Kevin Smith, Bill Loebs, Joe Maduriera, Rob Liefeld, etc.), because I know there are equally talented writers and artists out there who would meet their obligations if given fair and equal opportunity. And I oft times make suggestions in their stead (not naming myself, neither). And there are times when I will call into question the sensibilities of fans who keep "wanting" these creators when all they do is complain that these creators continually fail to meet expectations.

That to me is fan (and publisher) irresponsibility. If they fail to meet the expectations, then move on to someone else.

But not all the blame lies on the fans.

True enough, and I think that's where you mistook my point. The fans have a level of responsibility as part of the comics community that is shared with the creative community and the retail community. But no one group's share is any more important than the others.

*******

Spike-X asks: I mean, yeah it sucks that creators are getting screwed, etc etc, but seriously, what do you want me to do about it?

Fair question, Spike.

It's not that I expect you or any fan to "fix" the industry in this regard. That's more of a complaint against the media, and that some of you sometimes act as though the media tells you all that you need to know.

******

Corrina:

Bright-Raven, what can the average comic reader do, save vote with their purchases?

#1 - Help fans who are dissatisfied with the purchases they're making find other things to purchase they are happy with. If a person is complaining about a story or art, then they're dissatisfied. Ask them if this is just this issue, or have they been unhappy with the book for a while. If it's just this issue, don't make a sweat over it. But if they've been buying the book for the past six months and think the new art team is crap and the writing sucks, it's time for them to move on.

#2 - Don't buy books you yourself aren't completely happy with. Sure, you may be collecting that run of SUPERSPIDERBAT, but if you don't like the writing of (example) Chuck Austen and he's due to be writing the book for the next three months, for Pete's sakes skip it for that arc. Don't buy it for sake of completion and then grump about how crappy a writer Austen is and how the publisher "ruined" your comic by hiring him on. Save your money for something else you might enjoy.

#3 - If you're buying something that isn't the "standard fare", do what I used to do when there were shops I could visit - make the retailer order more copies and then come in on comic book shipment day and pimp the book. You can't be the only one with good taste, right? ;)

[Gail Simone]

"Now, if we're going to start putting out BATMAN COMICS MONTHLY and make it 150-200 pages for say $5, then yeah, it's gonna go over. But 22 pages for $3? Forget it."

There's pretty much zero, and I mean ZERO, evidence that that is true at all. Both companies have floated trial balloons in this direction to almost no enthusiasm at all from readers or news distributors. You're stating it as a fact, and I've posed this exact scenario to high-ups at DC and Marvel, who have made it clear that support for such a product has not shown up in the past. COULD it show, sure. But it hasn't yet, not for Batman or any other DC or Marvel product.

Gail

[Spike-X]

The reason comics moved off the newsstand in the first place was because of the books having page counts cut to the point where newsstands didn't think it was viable to have them.

Page counts have remained the same for the last twenty years, which is how long I've been able to buy original American comics in Australian newsagents. And I'm pretty sure they were the same for a long time before that.

Now, if we're going to start putting out BATMAN COMICS MONTHLY and make it 150-200 pages for say $5, then yeah, it's gonna go over. But 22 pages for $3? Forget it.


As you more accurately state here, the problem is the price (well, one of the problems). Parents aren't seeing the value in paying so much money for so little content. Hell, I wouldn't be paying Aus $6 for a 22-page Superman comic for my kid, and I like comics!

[pennywisdom]

Okay.

Then what's the controversy? Who cares?

Gail
I'm very, very sorry I haven't done my part to "save comics", B-R. I mean, I'd like to be able to devote myself 24/7 to the injustices which seemingly run rampant through the industry, but I'm too busy working for a living.

I mean, yeah it sucks that creators are getting screwed, etc etc, but seriously, what do you want me to do about it?
I love you both. Thank you and thank you.

B-R: Do you really think unmitigated condescension, unclear focus, rambling and refusing to step down from your bully pulpit will help rally the troops? You're not even saying anything new.

[kingdom2000]

Death to the ones wh0 cry 616!! Viva La Revolution! Take no prisioners! *
* I just read that thread and jesus....how can 616 cause that much hell?

I think its just Mac. Something crawled up his butt and died last week cause he has been very ornery for the last couple of days. Normally he has been a little intense but he has been notching it up a bit. Just have to be patient or treat it as the entertainment it actually is.

[Bright-Raven]

ECW:

As consumers we do not control the retail.

That's not how retail looks at it, to hear many of them talk. "I only order enough to sell out" is the catchphrase. Thing is, many of them still overorder. They'll buy enough copies for their pulls plus X number for the shelves, and end up with extras on the shelves. Or, they will overorder excessively on a specific product (event story, a #1 issue for a new series that they're not completely psyched out on and plan to pimp, etc.).

Now, how can you help them from making that mistake? By talking to your retailer. Ask them when an event comes out how well the last event sold. Make them think about the trends and their own sales levels. Hopefully then they'll order accordingly, instead of trying to overorder to get a special edition copy or a higher discount level on their order.

It also helps if you like non-mainstream books to remind them that you like them and that other people might like them too. Otherwise you might find yourself missing an issue in your pull box because you were their only order and they were so engrossed in trying to figure their Marvel / DC order that they skipped right on past your title in the catalog.

Hey, it happens.

People already (promote comics) more than likely when there's people in thier LCS. They recommend what thier reading if said person isn't reading. Just what we do online.

Okay, but do you promote comics that you aren't reading yourself currently, but may have read in the past that you think they might enjoy? Or, during the course of conversation, maybe there's a title neither of you have read, but they mentioned interest in something that made you connect the title. Would you suggest they look at it?

And maybe it's just me, but every time I go into comics shops, people just run to the retailer, get their pulls, pay the tab and get the hell out. There IS NO CONVERSATION with fellow patrons. Of course, as you say, that could be because today people don't have time for it.

A lot of fans hang on hoping (for improvement).

Sure they do. But if you're not happy, there's no reason to hang on. You can always go back to it later when there's a new creative team and direction.

Fanboy: *GASP!* No! I can't! I'll be missing issues in my collection! I'll have to go back and spend even more money to complete it! And maybe the issues won't be there because it sold out! Arrrgh! *Faints*

Please. It's a freakin' comic book.

You were a College kid who had time to go in and push the comics you wished. Thats the difference...you could sit there all day and talk about the greatness of Ceberus. Can you do that today?

Well, specifically I can't today because I would have to drive 200 miles to the nearest comics shop round trip and nobody's comic is worth that much effort unless it's my own and I'm on tour promoting it like an author would on a book tour.

But that aside, did I have time when I was working a "day job" and there actually were comics shops here? Certainly not to go in every day, no. But I knew when the comics were arriving and I knew when the majority of people came in (usually between 4 PM and closing). Could I go in for an hour or two on that day? Sure. And I did. But the retailer thought he knew it all and refused to order anything I wanted for the shelves to promote.

Typical exchange between me and the BEST retailer in the area in the 90s:

"Bob, where's your Sandman comics?"

"Sandman?! I tried that years ago. It won't sell here."

"Bob, I just moved here and I've been following it since the beginning. I'd appreciate you ordering it for me."

"No can do. I told you it won't sell here."

"Bob, I'm reading Hellboy. How about oh, say, 3 copies for the shelves, instead of the 8 Legion books that you're ordering and only selling 3 of?"

"Nah. I need to make my discount levels for DC. Hey - I know, I'll buy three of those hardcover editions that cost $50 apiece!"

This is the typical retailer mentality I'd dealt with between Summer of 1994 to 1999, before they all went out of business.

And they all died within a year after a franchise media store (Hastings) came to town. Because ultimately even they had better selection of trades and monthlies than the specialty stores did.

Are all retailers this stupid? Of course not. But I've seen plenty who were and I know of plenty who went out of business because of it. And every time one of them goes out of business (no matter how deservedly so), it hurts the industry.

Again....a lot of us have jobs and money is tight. I am not gonna be stuck with 3 copies of Manhunter ...

Actually, I think you meant to say people have expenses and money is tight (so what else isn't new?). Why should you be stuck with 3 copies of anything?

Maybe I'm just the weird one, but whenever I end up with multiple copies, I just send them out as gifts to friends who are comics fans at the holidays, or give out books at Halloween, or donate to a library... there's all sorts of means.

You wanna expand the industry ? Well ya gotta take jumps into where the kids and teen-agers hang out. Not try and keep using methods that have sadly exhausted themselves.

Oh, you mean like making a specialized catalog for your local schools so that little kids can order all those Warner Bros. cartoon comics that "don't sell" among other things?

Or going to your local library and helping set up a Graphic Novels division and a reading center for comics?

Or maybe going to your local YMCA / Boys & Girls Club and getting them to order comics from the local retailer?

Or how about putting ads in the local newspaper to promote a weekend comics sale?

No? You want to try going to the Boy Scouts and getting them interested in going door to door to promote comics subscriptions that you as a retailer would fulfill?

Or how about placing comics vending machines in shopping centers?

There's all sorts of things I've already done or have researched / am researching to try in the future. I can tell you what worked and what didn't and why. I can tell you why some of these won't work in today's industry, even though there's no reason for them not to.

As for your multimedia / TV Commercial mess - that might be something the megacorps can do, but it's not something the industry as a whole can do. Although I am a proponent of doing a "Time Life Books" style of advertisement for Graphic Novels and have suggested it to every major publisher in this business, they've all said no. Although I have told many companies to work with the Science Fiction Book Club to sell remainders of their trades, I find the attitudes of the publishers to be reticent at best.

Of course, this is not the consumer's fault. That falls squarely on the shoulders of the publishers there. (Publisher Apathy)

[Charles RB]

You both comment that you feel that you only have the responsibility as "consumers" to buy that which you like, and to hell with everything else.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

Sorry, but yes it does. That's what being a consumer is all about- you buy what you want to buy, and there is no inherent obligation to do anything else. Welcome to capitalism.

People with jobs are what's killing comics.

Agency X is what's killing comics, but only for the money.

[matterconsumer]

"Now, if we're going to start putting out BATMAN COMICS MONTHLY and make it 150-200 pages for say $5, then yeah, it's gonna go over. But 22 pages for $3? Forget it."

There's pretty much zero, and I mean ZERO, evidence that that is true at all.



Actually we're seeing $3.99 and $4.95 comics with far less than 150-200 pages.

Infinite Crisis comes immediately to mind (at $3.99) and assorted one shots/minis at $4.95.

[Corrina]

#1 - Help fans who are dissatisfied with the purchases they're making find other things to purchase they are happy with. If a person is complaining about a story or art, then they're dissatisfied. Ask them if this is just this issue, or have they been unhappy with the book for a while. If it's just this issue, don't make a sweat over it. But if they've been buying the book for the past six months and think the new art team is crap and the writing sucks, it's time for them to move on.

Well...what about those of us who get our comics by mail order?

[FantomasPR]

Actually we're seeing $3.99 and $4.95 comics with far less than 150-200 pages.

Infinite Crisis comes immediately to mind and assorted one shots/minis at $4.95.

I think that what Gail was referring too was the evidence that a 150-200 page comic would "go over", not to the fact that 5 bucks comics with less than 150 pages do exist and have existed for many years.

I have seen many efforts by both DC and Marvel to do cheaper comics. Remember the Busiek Spider Man? The animated Batman book had for me the best stories, fantastic art, with the look of a top rated and acclaimed show and yet it was always the lowest selling Bat Book.

Heck, this past week She Hulk 100 had a new story plus reprints of Savage She Hulk and Sensational She Hulk in glossy paper for only 3.99. It will be interesting to see if now people support these kinds of efforts with their money.

[AllisterH]

Cross-posting from the Marvel thread:

I think that the difference is that the designations for the various Earths had their roots in people reading the stories.

JSA-Earth was Earth-2 because I'd read the books which involved them. There were lots of books that involved them.


I'm sorry to say, but that's a horrid example.

As the Golden Age Flash himself pointed out, it never made sense that the JSA Earth was called Earth 2 because they had heroes around longer than Earth 1.

Earth 2 makes as much sense as Earth 616.

[YoGo]

I got shot because of 616!! :mad:

[Corrina]

No, it's not a horrible example.

I used the Earth-2 designation because it appeared over and over in my reading. It was on covers, there were numerous references, etc. In the 1970s or even the 1980s, you couldn't read DC comics without being aware of it.

616 is a term mainly developed on the internet from one reference by Alan Moore, used now in one X-book. I could read the vast bulk of Marvel work now and never find a reference to 616. (Which, I assume, is why it's a frequently asked question on the Marvel board--if it was self-evident to a reader, people wouldn't keep asking all the time.)

I make no judgments about the people who use 616, but there is a difference.

A better analogy to 616 would be the terms for DC's Pre-and post-Crisis. Those terms were also mainly developed and used by fans--and not in regular DC reading.

Digression: That's half my problem now with DC's Infinite Crisis. It relies on a 20-year-old series that hasn't really been necessary for current readers until now. After Crisis, new readers could read DC without being aware of it (uh, I guess until Zero Hour.) For years, readers could read Supes or Batman without having to know pre-crisis or post-crisis. Not so now.

[Gingold]

Well, specifically I can't today because I would have to drive 200 miles to the nearest comics shop round trip and nobody's comic is worth that much effort unless it's my own and I'm on tour promoting it like an author would on a book tour.

But that aside, did I have time when I was working a "day job" and there actually were comics shops here? Certainly not to go in every day, no. But I knew when the comics were arriving and I knew when the majority of people came in (usually between 4 PM and closing). Could I go in for an hour or two on that day? Sure. And I did. But the retailer thought he knew it all and refused to order anything I wanted for the shelves to promote.

Typical exchange between me and the BEST retailer in the area in the 90s:

"Bob, where's your Sandman comics?"

"Sandman?! I tried that years ago. It won't sell here."

"Bob, I just moved here and I've been following it since the beginning. I'd appreciate you ordering it for me."

"No can do. I told you it won't sell here."

"Bob, I'm reading Hellboy. How about oh, say, 3 copies for the shelves, instead of the 8 Legion books that you're ordering and only selling 3 of?"

"Nah. I need to make my discount levels for DC. Hey - I know, I'll buy three of those hardcover editions that cost $50 apiece!"

This is the typical retailer mentality I'd dealt with between Summer of 1994 to 1999, before they all went out of business.



Are there actually retailers this bad and stupid? Move out of the flyover states, dude.

Seriously, though- I'm not exactly sure what I should be doing to "save comics". The comics shop I regularly patronize usually has what I want and if it doesn't, it gets it for me. The people who run the place are helpful and knowledgeable, and it's the first comic book store my wife hasn't been afraid to enter. They know the business a lot better than I do, I'm certainly not going to tell them how to do their jobs. I've got students to teach, bills to pay, a cat to feed, and a wife to ignore (just kidding, dear). I feel I'm doing more than my share just by showing up every Wednesday. As I've said before, I'm as happy with the product as I've ever been, and I enjoy the connection to the fan community that the internet has brought us. It's obvious that things aren't that bad, because we've been having a (semi)serious argument over whether or not the use of "616" is killing comics. Sweet Jesus! If your local comic shop in Fritters, Alabama sucks- no shit- it's in Fritters, Alabama.

[NickThompson]

I used the Earth-2 designation because it appeared over and over in my reading. It was on covers, there were numerous references, etc. In the 1970s or even the 1980s, you couldn't read DC comics without being aware of it.

Not all of us read comics 25 years ago ;)

[Ponda]

"Apathy" is a word that often carries a negative connotation, but it doesn't have to.

For example, the following is true:
Through a complex system of chemical communication and constant feedback, an ant colony regulates the amount of worker and soldiers, and controls the timing of production of males and fertile females. In some species, when food in plentiful, young adults are fed and fed -- stuffed until they get big and fat and become living food-storage containers.

I don't care about it.
I am pretty sure there is nothing negative about me not caring about it.

I feel the same way about 616.

[Spike-X]

That's not how retail looks at it, to hear many of them talk. "I only order enough to sell out" is the catchphrase. Thing is, many of them still overorder. They'll buy enough copies for their pulls plus X number for the shelves, and end up with extras on the shelves. Or, they will overorder excessively on a specific product (event story, a #1 issue for a new series that they're not completely psyched out on and plan to pimp, etc.).

Now, how can you help them from making that mistake? By talking to your retailer. Ask them when an event comes out how well the last event sold. Make them think about the trends and their own sales levels. Hopefully then they'll order accordingly, instead of trying to overorder to get a special edition copy or a higher discount level on their order.

When did it become the customer's responsibility to run somebody's shop for them? It's neither my job, my duty, nor my place to do so, even if I did have the time or inclination. Which I don't. I guess I'm killing comics.

But that aside, did I have time when I was working a "day job" and there actually were comics shops here? Certainly not to go in every day, no. But I knew when the comics were arriving and I knew when the majority of people came in (usually between 4 PM and closing). Could I go in for an hour or two on that day? Sure. And I did. But the retailer thought he knew it all and refused to order anything I wanted for the shelves to promote.

Arrogant bastard, wanting to run his shop his own way, rather than letting some customer do it for him. It's people like that who are killing comics.

Typical exchange between me and the BEST retailer in the area in the 90s:

"Bob, where's your Sandman comics?"

"Sandman?! I tried that years ago. It won't sell here."

"Bob, I just moved here and I've been following it since the beginning. I'd appreciate you ordering it for me."

"No can do. I told you it won't sell here."

"Bob, I'm reading Hellboy. How about oh, say, 3 copies for the shelves, instead of the 8 Legion books that you're ordering and only selling 3 of?"

"Nah. I need to make my discount levels for DC. Hey - I know, I'll buy three of those hardcover editions that cost $50 apiece!"

This is the typical retailer mentality I'd dealt with between Summer of 1994 to 1999, before they all went out of business.

Well, assuming those examples are nice and accurate, they deserved to go out of business. That seems, on the face of it, to be pretty stupid business, especially the part about refusing to order a comic you've said you want to buy.

However, when did it become our job, our duty, or our place to save retailers from their own stupidity? Frankly, I'd rather spend between 4pm and closing every Wednesday playing with my kids, rather than pushing shit uphill. I guess I'm killing comics.

Are all retailers this stupid? Of course not. But I've seen plenty who were and I know of plenty who went out of business because of it. And every time one of them goes out of business (no matter how deservedly so), it hurts the industry.

It's my job to support myself and my kids. The comics industry is just gonna have to take care of itself. I guess I'm killing comics.

Maybe I'm just the weird one, but whenever I end up with multiple copies, I just send them out as gifts to friends who are comics fans at the holidays, or give out books at Halloween, or donate to a library... there's all sorts of means.

Good for you. I can't even afford to buy all the comics I want for myself, let alone buying them for other people. I guess I'm killing comics.

[Spike-X]

"Apathy" is a word that often carries a negative connotation, but it doesn't have to.

For example, the following is true:
Through a complex system of chemical communication and constant feedback, an ant colony regulates the amount of worker and soldiers, and controls the timing of production of males and fertile females. In some species, when food in plentiful, young adults are fed and fed -- stuffed until they get big and fat and become living food-storage containers.

I don't care about it.
I am pretty sure there is nothing negative about me not caring about it.

I feel the same way about 616.
You're killing comics.

And ants.

[FantomasPR]

Why is it that some comic fans feel they have to go on this crusade to convert people to this hobby like it was a religion? I got friends that ignore comics and I don't go and try to get them to read them, if they ever get interested they just have to pick them up, they are all over my place.

About the comic shop, if I was the owner I would consider it very rude if a client was trying to tell me how to run my business, specially one who has never done so in the past. Ordering comics is a hard job by itself. If people really want to help, don't tell your retailer that you want him/her to order 3 copies of XYZ comics for the shelf, order and pay 3 copies! Telling the retailer to order for the shelf is giving him/her all the risk.

Comic shops have one or two employees generally. Casual talk while we wait for the ATM transaction to get approved is no problem, but to have a client in front of the cash register for hours is a problem for the owner. I go to the comic shop, get my books and go out. When I go to the movies I don't talk to the popcorn lady so that she can recommend me some movies either. I really don't need another client trying to promote his or her taste in comics to me. I am quite capable on getting the information about the titles I am interested from the web and/or friends. If every Wednesday I went to the shop there was some guy asking me what did I buy and why don't I buy XYZ comics you bet I would either change my visiting hours or change my store.

Personally, I have been very satisfied with all the local stores. If I ask for something special they will order it from Previews. If there are no clients I talk to them,but not too long, as they have many things to do. And I know better than to try to talk to them when comics arrive and they are going crazy counting comics, placing books in the "New" section, taking the old out, putting comics in bags for pull sheets, checking that the clients are not putting comics under their tshirts and dealing with all the customers waiting in line for their purchases.

[Spike-X]

I got shot because of 616!! :mad:
People who use 616 are killing YoGo!

[Spike-X]

Why is it that some comic fans feel they have to go on this crusade to convert people to this hobby like it was a religion? I got friends that ignore comics and I don't go and try to get them to read them, if they ever get interested they just have to pick them up, they are all over my place.

About the comic shop, if I was the owner I would consider it very rude if a client was trying to tell me how to run my business, specially one who has never done so in the past. Ordering comics is a hard job by itself. If people really want to help, don't tell your retailer that you want him/her to order 3 copies of XYZ comics for the shelf, order and pay 3 copies! Telling the retailer to order for the shelf is giving him/her all the risk.

Comic shops have one or two employees generally. Casual talk while we wait for the ATM transaction to get approved is no problem, but to have a client in front of the cash register for hours is a problem for the owner. I go to the comic shop, get my books and go out. When I go to the movies I don't talk to the popcorn lady so that she can recommend me some movies either. I really don't need another client trying to promote his or her taste in comics to me. I am quite capable on getting the information about the titles I am interested from the web and/or friends. If every Wednesday I went to the shop there was some guy asking me what did I buy and why don't I