Superman/Batman #23 *spoilers, naturally*

[malephoenix]

Sorry if there was already a thread about this somewhere. Couldn't find one.

Anywho, I was very surprised and I'm still very pleased with the Heroclix reference made in this issue. I'm looking forward to seeing the resolution of the game and to seeing how Supes or the Bat are going to stop Joker and Myx from playing. (I gotta hand it to Loeb; this was a great use for Myx and his bizarre powers.)

[cmndob]

Yeah this arc was close to losing me after a few issues and no real information but I like what was being done in this issue with Mxy and Joker. I think this will be Loeb's best use of Joker yet!

[Guts/Batman]

Joker and Mxy again.

Remind where this fits into continuity again. I'm gonna need some help making sense of where this fits into continuity.

[Azrael52]

What the hell is continuity again?

[Lurker]

What the hell is continuity again?


I think it has something to do with the Hokey Pokey.

[KET]

What the hell is continuity again?

Something that gets thrown out whenever Jeph Loeb lamely recycles Emperor Joker in order to give himself a GREAT EXCUSE FOR SLOPPY WRITING.

[Nick Kal]

Considering these issues are late... this happens before Joker is captured by Jason Todd. There... now you can stop bitching.

[stealthwise]

Considering these issues are late... this happens before Joker is captured by Jason Todd. There... now you can stop bitching.

Um... Joker's already free in Infinite Crisis.

[Jkid099]

Well presumably the whole Jason Todd arc happens before the major issues of Infinite Crisis. Hence Batman not being in his cave all the time all somber like.

[Nick Kal]

Um... Joker's already free in Infinite Crisis.

In #1 he was... Red Hood captured him as written in Batman #648. I guess we can assume after IC #1...

[Modi]

What the hell is continuity again?

it doesn't matter because it no longer seeems to exist in comics.

[Yoda]

Continuity, sminutiy.

It's a fun read, that has great art. That's enough to get my $3 when it comes out every 2-3 months. I just wish they havd kept the solicited Supergirl cover. McGuinness draws a great Supergirl.

[jade_nova]

Where there two covers printed for this issue? On DC's site they show it with Supergirl on the cover and the issue that I bought has the green glowing Batman fighting Superman.

[Pariah128]

So I guess Ruin didnt really kill mxy..?

[Guts/Batman]

So I guess Ruin didnt really kill mxy..?

This is Loeb-verse.

Nobody really knows what happens in Loeb-verse and as it connects to the rest of continuity. This book is in conituity, Loeb should make at least some attempt to have it make some sense.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

This is Loeb-verse.

Nobody really knows what happens in Loeb-verse and as it connects to the rest of continuity. This book is in conituity, Loeb should make at least some attempt to have it make some sense.


This, and the fact that this series sucks, is the reason why I fear for the Ultimates.

Anyone who thinks he's gonna do better than Millar are kidding themselves.

[KET]

Considering these issues are late... this happens before Joker is captured by Jason Todd. There... now you can stop bitching.


What's Jason Todd got to do with Jeph Loeb's sloppy writing? :confused:

[KET]

I just wish they had kept the solicited Supergirl cover. McGuinness draws a great Supergirl.

Maybe for that cover, but on the inside of the issue, McGuinness drew her more like she had Power Girl's body. Guess he must've forgot that she's supposed to be a teenager when he was doing all those gratuitous butt panels.

[Yoda]

Maybe for that cover, but on the inside of the issue, McGuinness drew her more like she had Power Girl's body. Guess he must've forgot that she's supposed to be a teenager when he was doing all those gratuitous butt panels.
They probably just feed her better on Paradise Island.

[Guts/Batman]

What's Jason Todd got to do with Jeph Loeb's sloppy writing? :confused:

Yea...

I mean, why are Joker and Mxy friends?

Did Mxy like getting manipulated the last time? Plus, didn't that not turn out that well the last time?

Plus, even if this does happen Pre-Countdown didn't Mxy's home dimension become a living hell before Countdown?

Loeb lost me when he stuck Darkseid on the Source Wall back in #14 of this series. Darkseid dead...in DCU continuity?

And someone ok'd this?

[KET]

They probably just feed her better on Paradise Island.

Seems doubtful, since she also grew a few inches seemingly instantly. But I find it amusingly ironic how Loeb always needs to get Supergirl running around nekkid in his stories for no reason. Some 'respect' for the character, no? ;)


Face it, McGuinness just hasn't got a firm grasp on drawing female anatomy. Heck, I remember his Lois looking almost manly when he first started working with Loeb.

[Lurker]

This, and the fact that this series sucks, is the reason why I fear for the Ultimates.

Anyone who thinks he's gonna do better than Millar are kidding themselves.

The last issue of Millar's Ultimates will be the last issue of Ultimates for me.

Any news on what Mark V. has in store for this title once Loeb goes to Marvel.

[Yoda]

Seems doubtful, since she also grew a few inches seemingly instantly. But I find it amusingly ironic how Loeb always needs to get Supergirl running around nekkid in his stories for no reason. Some 'respect' for the character, no? ;)

Think of it as a tribute to PAD's final few issues. Benes had a feild day with those.

Face it, McGuinness just hasn't got a firm grasp on drawing female anatomy. Heck, I remember his Lois looking almost manly when he first started working with Loeb.

McGuinness' style isn't realistic to begin with, it's that magnaesque cartoony type stuff. You can't really criticize him for being anatomically incorrect when his art really isn't supposed to go in that direction to begin with.

But, I guess it just comes down to personal taste in artists. Me, I've always liked his stuff. Even own a few sketchs of his stuff from his first Superman run.

[Gingold]

Yea...

Loeb lost me when he stuck Darkseid on the Source Wall back in #14 of this series. Darkseid dead...in DCU continuity?

And someone ok'd this?

It's not like it hasn't happened before. During most of Byrne's run on the 4th World characters, he was trapped. He'll be back, obviously.

I thought this issue was fun. I've loved the wacky vibe this series has had, though the dueling narrators thing got old after the second issue. Any story that features both Bizarro and Mxy is a-okay in my book, and Batzarro? Why did it take so long? McGuinness is a heck of a cartoonist. I didn't really care for the Kara in a towel scene either, but at least she looks like she's been eating better than she did when Churchill and Turner drew her.

I'm sure after the story's all done we'll be able to figure out where if fits in the grander scheme of things. If strict adherance to continuity is someone's only objection to a story, than maybe it's not the writer who has the problem...

[Guts/Batman]

If strict adherance to continuity is someone's only objection to a story, than maybe it's not the writer who has the problem...

But it's not only that.

It's too goofy for me. His treatment of characters is what is getting me as well. His writing bores me. There's too much jobbing. Joker playing Mxy?

Did that end well the last time that happened? I know he's having fun with the past stories of Batman and Superman...that's fine. I don't mind it. The idea is fine.

The execution could be better though.

He turned Batman and Superman into his own version of SuperGod and BatGod at the expense of characters that have no business being victimized by them.

Enough characters have been "Loebed" for me to keep reading it. I don't demand that he keeps strict to continuity but at least try to make sense for those trying to fit pieces together.

When I read, I don't merely read the one issue. I read it remembering past issues...other issues within DCU. Constantly thinking of what happened in other issues to see what happened so I can evaluate where this fits in with the universe as a whole.

Now that I think about it...maybe this is why I like mini series better than ongoing series...? Anyways...

My brain is constantly at work when I read. Stopping to say "WTF?!? When and why did this happen?" mid sentence is never a good thing?

Perhaps I think too much when I read. My expectations are high, that's true. But should go into a comic book with low expectations? Why is that a good thing?

Loeb has not been meeting my expectations so I dropped the book.

The funny thing is...4 monthes ago I didn't read comics like I do now. The way DC has had the writers write their stories now have changed how I read comic books. With each crappy comic, I have learned to see the flaws in the book instead of actually enjoying what I am reading.

It is involuntarily at this point.

I enjoy reading the books. But only to see how else Didio and the editorial staff can screw with the characters.

But...in this series, we have BatGod outsmarting a prepped Dark-freaking-seid. But has him getting outsmarted by Black Mask. Has Black Mask all of a sudden become more compentent than Darkseid?

For the love of God...why? (Yes, I recognize the fact that I am a Darkseid fanboy.)

His treatment of the characters is his major problem for me. Too much "summer blockbuster" storytelling. If I have to turn my brain off to read a story, that doesn't tell me much about the story.

His Superman and Batman are jobbers...And the last thing I like seeing is Batman and Superman becoming jobbers. Plus, if any Batman can be said to be superhuman it is S/B Batman.

And for the record, the only artist that I think should be allowed to draw Supergirl is...Ed Benes.

[Gingold]

But it's not only that.

It's too goofy for me. His treatment of characters is what is getting me as well. His writing bores me. There's too much jobbing. Joker playing Mxy?

Did that end well the last time that happened? I know he's having fun with the past stories of Batman and Superman...that's fine. I don't mind it. The idea is fine.

The execution could be better though.

He turned Batman and Superman into his own version of SuperGod and BatGod at the expense of characters that have no business being victimized by them.

Enough characters have been "Loebed" for me to keep reading it. I don't demand that he keeps strict to continuity but at least try to make sense for those trying to fit pieces together.

When I read, I don't merely read the one issue. I read it remembering past issues...other issues within DCU. Constantly thinking of what happened in other issues to see what happened so I can evaluate where this fits in with the universe as a whole.

Now that I think about it...maybe this is why I like mini series better than ongoing series...? Anyways...

My brain is constantly at work when I read. Stopping to say "WTF?!? When and why did this happen?" mid sentence is never a good thing?

Perhaps I think too much when I read. My expectations are high, that's true. But should go into a comic book with low expectations? Why is that a good thing?

Loeb has not been meeting my expectations so I dropped the book.

The funny thing is...4 monthes ago I didn't read comics like I do now. The way DC has had the writers write their stories now have changed how I read comic books. With each crappy comic, I have learned to see the flaws in the book instead of actually enjoying what I am reading.

It is involuntarily at this point.

I enjoy reading the books. But only to see how else Didio and the editorial staff can screw with the characters.

But...in this series, we have BatGod outsmarting a prepped Dark-freaking-seid. But has him getting outsmarted by Black Mask. Has Black Mask all of a sudden become more compentent than Darkseid?

For the love of God...why? (Yes, I recognize the fact that I am a Darkseid fanboy.)

His treatment of the characters is his major problem for me. Too much "summer blockbuster" storytelling. If I have to turn my brain off to read a story, that doesn't tell me much about the story.

His Superman and Batman are jobbers...And the last thing I like seeing is Batman and Superman becoming jobbers. Plus, if any Batman can be said to be superhuman it is S/B Batman.

And for the record, the only artist that I think should be allowed to draw Supergirl is...Ed Benes.

Um...what's "jobbing"?

[Lurker]

Um...what's "jobbing"?

A pro wrestler with a bad win/loss record.

[Jack Tango]

Um...what's "jobbing"?

Essentially, a "jobber" is someone whose primary role is to lose matches and make other wrestlers look good. The term "doing the job," means "going out to the ring and losing."

Over the years, the term has grown more meaningless, as people have learned the in-and-outs of wrestling lingo, and subsequently misapply it to situations in wrestling (and, often out of wrestling) that are not necessarily "jobbing," and in reality "furthering the story."

Regardless, opinion and perception are more important than reality, so I am not one to dictate that Darkseid is not a jobber, merely state that I do not agree that he is, and feel as though it is a misappropriation of the term.

To each their own, however.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Um...what's "jobbing"?

LOL, I'm surprised that doesn't get asked more around here.

So yeah, this arc is getting goofier and goofier. Seems like the only one having fun with it is Loeb.

Not to nitpick, but why did Bruce call Batman Beyond 'Tim' over his headset? And why was BB using the BTAS Batplane?

Though in context, it doesn't really matter... :p

[Gingold]

Essentially, a "jobber" is someone whose primary role is to lose matches and make other wrestlers look good. The term "doing the job," means "going out to the ring and losing."

Over the years, the term has grown more meaningless, as people have learned the in-and-outs of wrestling lingo, and subsequently misapply it to situations in wrestling (and, often out of wrestling) that are not necessarily "jobbing," and in reality "furthering the story."

Regardless, opinion and perception are more important than reality, so I am not one to dictate that Darkseid is not a jobber, merely state that I do not agree that he is, and feel as though it is a misappropriation of the term.

To each their own, however.

Thanks.

Aren't really any villains in a Superman/Batman book potential "jobbers"? We aren't reading this book to watch them (Supes and Bats) lose. Besides it's Superman and the goddamn Batman- the greatest combination of strength, skill, brains, heroism, and morals out there. They're going to kick anyone's ass. Darkseid is one of my favorite bad guys, but he's still a bad guy. Bad guys are suposed to lose.

[Guts/Batman]

Essentially, a "jobber" is someone whose primary role is to lose matches and make other wrestlers look good. The term "doing the job," means "going out to the ring and losing."

It translates nicely to comic book characters however...

Darkseid was THE definition of power in PC DC, however, Post-COIE he has become a character that exists to make other characters look better. Firelord has the same problem as Darkseid does right now.

If DC/Marvel needs to make some character to look badass, they say "We'll just have him beat/outsmart Darkseid/Firelord." They might not say it in their words but they certainly say it with their stories.

That's why S/B was freakin hilarious. But not a good hilarious. It was "why" this doesn't make sense. My problem with Darkseid treatment in S/B was that his character was...distinctly not Darkseid's character.

Exploding out of the Kent's farmhouse. Are you serious? Clark couldn't see him when approaching the house? Not only in Darkseid totally incompetent, not Darkseid but Superman is also totally incompetent for not seeing Darkseid from 1000 miles away.

That was just insulting to me as a reader. That was enough to make me stop buying anything Loeb.

Recently, Batman has been made so far above his rogues that they are no longer believably dangerous to him in any way. Which is something that puzzles me about Batman comics recently.

Why did they need to create Hush, bring Jason back when he already has one of the best rogues galleries in comics and they go unused? It's just so confusing.

Superman doesn't have that problem per say in his own books. He is just...morally...insecure right now. Which is...stupid I think.

[Kid Kyoto]

Batgod and Supergod are symptoms of any Batman/Superman teamup.

I know they've been paired since the 1950s and there are strong commercial reasons to do it but... they don't play remotely in the same league. Putting Batman against Darkseid in the JLA or S/B just makes us wonder how come he's having trouble with Killer Kroc in Detective. Superman and the Phantom Stranger would make a great team, Batman and the Guardian would be fantastic. You can only combine Fly Through the Sun Man and Normal Guy in Tights so many times before the concepts behind one or the other start to unravel.

[Guts/Batman]

Exactly.

There are so many inconsistencies with Batman and Superman's abilities already (Winick can't even keep his book inconsistency free), this book realllllllly doesn't help the problem.

Rather, it expands the problem. Obviously, other readers have less of a problem with the inconsistency than I do. I respect that but just can't feel the same way.

[jerrymcl89]

You either like the loopiness of this title, or you don't. Personally, I've found it to be a lot of fun. It is kind of a mess continuity-wise, but I choose not to worry about that overmuch.

[ducklord]

Personally, I'm more than willing to give a title a "Get Out of Continuity Free" card if it's consistently rewarding on its own merits.

In S/B's case, however, I often find myself getting tripped up by things that don't make a lick of sense within the context of the stories themselves (like, say, about 30-40% of the goings on in the initial arc of the series).

From the end of #23, it looks like there's going to be an attempt to use the Joker and Mxyzptlk to explain away some of the more "out there" aspects of the title over the last few years. I wonder if they'll be used to plug up some of the plotting oddities, as well.

It's a goofy book, that's for dang sure,
Mike.

[KET]

You either like the loopiness of this title, or you don't.

I don't think it's that absolute.

I think there's a LOT of people who have been simply buying it because 'it's Batman and Superman....together'. Unfortunately, Jeph Loeb keeps taking these readers for granted with his slip-shod plotting. It's as if that last page reveal in #23 was actually a SELF-REFERENCE to why Loeb's books are now consistantly late.